| [Head banger] Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:50:34 PM | |
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want and expect are different. I sure as hell want to. expect to is different. but I saw a study a while ago that 10% of canadians are counting on the lotto for their retirement. thats stupid
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:47:51 PM)| |  | _strat_ wrote: | | Frankly, I dont think most people want to "win the lotto", or are at least not seriously expecting it. A normal, decent life would suffice, at least for me.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | its harder, and it also is unlikely people will try. its the same with the lotto, more people buy when the prize is 40 mill than 2 mil. your odds of winning are the same, and realy, 2 mil is a good prize, but its not inspiring.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, it makes it harder too reach for the stars, but at least it guarantees a certain minimum that you can always count on, no matter how down on your luck you may be.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but... the welfare state provides less incentive to work, reducing the total production of the state, so everyone has less
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Of course it matters. Its just this pride and all the emotion that goes with it (speaking of nationality here) that I dont understand. Come tho think of it, I dont want to understand it.
The government sets things up, and thats about as much as it can do. A certain number (a majority) of people still have to work.
And as far as Im concerned, while it has its drawbacks, a welfare state is a very good thing. Does much more good than harm.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:47:51 PM | |
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Frankly, I dont think most people want to "win the lotto", or are at least not seriously expecting it. A normal, decent life would suffice, at least for me.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:56:57 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | its harder, and it also is unlikely people will try. its the same with the lotto, more people buy when the prize is 40 mill than 2 mil. your odds of winning are the same, and realy, 2 mil is a good prize, but its not inspiring.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, it makes it harder too reach for the stars, but at least it guarantees a certain minimum that you can always count on, no matter how down on your luck you may be.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but... the welfare state provides less incentive to work, reducing the total production of the state, so everyone has less
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Of course it matters. Its just this pride and all the emotion that goes with it (speaking of nationality here) that I dont understand. Come tho think of it, I dont want to understand it.
The government sets things up, and thats about as much as it can do. A certain number (a majority) of people still have to work.
And as far as Im concerned, while it has its drawbacks, a welfare state is a very good thing. Does much more good than harm.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:56:57 PM | |
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its harder, and it also is unlikely people will try. its the same with the lotto, more people buy when the prize is 40 mill than 2 mil. your odds of winning are the same, and realy, 2 mil is a good prize, but its not inspiring.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:48:50 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, it makes it harder too reach for the stars, but at least it guarantees a certain minimum that you can always count on, no matter how down on your luck you may be.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but... the welfare state provides less incentive to work, reducing the total production of the state, so everyone has less
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Of course it matters. Its just this pride and all the emotion that goes with it (speaking of nationality here) that I dont understand. Come tho think of it, I dont want to understand it.
The government sets things up, and thats about as much as it can do. A certain number (a majority) of people still have to work.
And as far as Im concerned, while it has its drawbacks, a welfare state is a very good thing. Does much more good than harm.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:48:50 PM | |
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Well, it makes it harder too reach for the stars, but at least it guarantees a certain minimum that you can always count on, no matter how down on your luck you may be.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:46:19 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | but... the welfare state provides less incentive to work, reducing the total production of the state, so everyone has less
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Of course it matters. Its just this pride and all the emotion that goes with it (speaking of nationality here) that I dont understand. Come tho think of it, I dont want to understand it.
The government sets things up, and thats about as much as it can do. A certain number (a majority) of people still have to work.
And as far as Im concerned, while it has its drawbacks, a welfare state is a very good thing. Does much more good than harm.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:46:19 PM | |
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but... the welfare state provides less incentive to work, reducing the total production of the state, so everyone has less
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:42:58 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Of course it matters. Its just this pride and all the emotion that goes with it (speaking of nationality here) that I dont understand. Come tho think of it, I dont want to understand it.
The government sets things up, and thats about as much as it can do. A certain number (a majority) of people still have to work.
And as far as Im concerned, while it has its drawbacks, a welfare state is a very good thing. Does much more good than harm.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:42:58 PM | |
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Of course it matters. Its just this pride and all the emotion that goes with it (speaking of nationality here) that I dont understand. Come tho think of it, I dont want to understand it.
The government sets things up, and thats about as much as it can do. A certain number (a majority) of people still have to work.
And as far as Im concerned, while it has its drawbacks, a welfare state is a very good thing. Does much more good than harm.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:21:17 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:27:48 AM | |
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a reasonable concept gone horibly wrong. went from being a safety net to being a goal for some people, horibly abused system.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:22:06 AM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Welfare anyone???
| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [ron h] Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:22:06 AM | |
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Welfare anyone???
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:21:17 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:21:17 AM | |
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ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, May 17, 2009 3:35:22 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, May 17, 2009 3:38:59 AM | |
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Well, since the US is not your average nation-state, I guess that would convey a different message in the US than in Europe.
As for helping my country - why should I? I dont owe a single thing to my country.
That, and every government depends on the people, and never vice versa. The government doesnt produce anything, its only role is to rule and manage.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:43:39 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | what was meant by this phrase, IMO was not a nationalistic message, but that people should do all they can to help their country, rather than asking for help. in short independance, not dependance. now the left calls for more people to behave in a way more dependant on the government, people depend on the govt, not govt on people
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, May 17, 2009 3:35:22 AM | |
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Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:41:41 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [ron h] Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:28:58 PM | |
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| Can morality be legislated?? Should morality be legislated?? Who decides what's morally right and wrong?? Separation of Church and State in the USA leaves politicians to decide. No soloution satisfies everybody. This is the reality, everything else is personal opinion and I will keep mine to myself on these issues... |
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| [Head banger] Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:43:39 PM | |
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what was meant by this phrase, IMO was not a nationalistic message, but that people should do all they can to help their country, rather than asking for help. in short independance, not dependance. now the left calls for more people to behave in a way more dependant on the government, people depend on the govt, not govt on people
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:40:56 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [Head banger] Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:41:41 PM | |
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so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:58:43 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [~ MG_Metalgoddess~] Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:23:45 PM | |
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LOL I meant when you get married the goverment taxes the shit out of you and your spouse.. so I figured they would want to approve the whole gay marriage thing...
I person.. Doesnt matter to me, If people want to get married thats their buisness,, I think there is a whole lot of more real issues and problems going on in the USA.. that the whole gay marriage thing, they act like it more important than the war, or the economic crisis.. unemployment, banks crashing... ect.. I think its ridiculous.. myself... For people to make such an effort and turn out at the poles on this issue, when over half of them dont even vote in the general elections. Then whine and complain about everything else... Priorities.... Is what I call it.... Live and let live..
~MG~
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:03:07 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | The marriage tax not withstanding, I believe it is the loss of property and loss of benefits when one partner dies that is the biggest problem facing those who have no rights under marriage right now. I know a man who has lived with his partner for 45 years, he is now in a nursing home and his partner is still going; and a bit younger, thank god my friend chose to sign his property over to his long term partner a few years back when he saw the enevitable was going to happen to him with illness. His partner, though will never get any benifits of collecting his partner's benefits or social security, which should be by law his. 45 years with the same person should be applauded in any situation, and his rights as his partner have no protection. He will get no benifits except his own and that is not right. Widows barely make it as it is on the money they get, and to not have that portion, he's going to have to work till the day he joins his partner in death to afford to live. Sad really.
| | | ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ wrote: | | Just think how this could benefit the US Goverment, the could penalize more people with the Marriage TAX... LMAO
| | | spapad wrote: | | I honestly believe that most people who profess to be gay were in fact born that way, and if they choose to share their lives in a union with someone, why shouldn't they get the same treatment under the laws that we all get. That said, since 50 percent of marriages fail, let them also enjoy the hardships of that aspect as well. They should be treated just like the rest of us! It's only fair.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok... Since the topic stalled a bit, how about something new? And I know that HB will come rushing to my side now...
Same sex marriage, yay or nay? And please, no miss USA, or miss California, or whatever that shit was about. |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:58:43 PM | |
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Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:23:19 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [spapad] Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:23:19 PM | |
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So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:40:56 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:40:56 PM | |
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Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:26:09 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [Head banger] Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:26:09 PM | |
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in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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| [spapad] Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:03:07 PM | |
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The marriage tax not withstanding, I believe it is the loss of property and loss of benefits when one partner dies that is the biggest problem facing those who have no rights under marriage right now. I know a man who has lived with his partner for 45 years, he is now in a nursing home and his partner is still going; and a bit younger, thank god my friend chose to sign his property over to his long term partner a few years back when he saw the enevitable was going to happen to him with illness. His partner, though will never get any benifits of collecting his partner's benefits or social security, which should be by law his. 45 years with the same person should be applauded in any situation, and his rights as his partner have no protection. He will get no benifits except his own and that is not right. Widows barely make it as it is on the money they get, and to not have that portion, he's going to have to work till the day he joins his partner in death to afford to live. Sad really.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ from Saturday, May 16, 2009 11:20:48 AM)| | | ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ wrote: | | Just think how this could benefit the US Goverment, the could penalize more people with the Marriage TAX... LMAO
| | | spapad wrote: | | I honestly believe that most people who profess to be gay were in fact born that way, and if they choose to share their lives in a union with someone, why shouldn't they get the same treatment under the laws that we all get. That said, since 50 percent of marriages fail, let them also enjoy the hardships of that aspect as well. They should be treated just like the rest of us! It's only fair.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok... Since the topic stalled a bit, how about something new? And I know that HB will come rushing to my side now...
Same sex marriage, yay or nay? And please, no miss USA, or miss California, or whatever that shit was about. |
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