| [spapad] Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:01:42 PM | |
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| DF, Guids, looks like you summed up the quagmire pretty well. LOL |
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| [Becks] Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:01:06 PM | |
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I have read that in many places Freeze - Obama needs to get the balls to just do something about it. Thanks for your comments, that makes a lot of sense to me, and I agree, the fact that the US can spend shit loads invading countries etc, but it's own citizens don't get healthcare as a right, is absolutely ridiculous. I am also sorry to hear that the Princess isn't well and no one will help you guys out health care wise 
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:06:50 AM)| |  | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Holy CRAP!!! Guido..? In the SOCIAL Thread?!??!?!?!?!? HA!!!!!!!!!!!! I have seen it all now! GREAT comments from all, I must say. Now for MINE!!!;
Most of you here know my situation and the series of events that led me to where I am today. The "system" is a nightmare for those that really need it...at least from my experience. Now then, I say this only because I went through a HORRIBLE experience, emerged on the other side and now have to watch as a loved one is beaten down. You see, I have reached the point where there is nothing more for me to worry about. But, the Princess is gravely ill and NO insurance company will take her. Not at ANY price. She requires monthy medications and phlebotomies once every three months or so and NO ONE will help us. No one.
We live in the greatest, richest most powerful country on earth and yet our citizens do not have health care as a RIGHT???? I find that deplorable. As far as paying for it, do any of you know the exact number of "pet" projects and "pork" that are funded every year?? And that is only the start. Waste in government is well documented. We can blow up other people very well and with great precision but we cannot care for our own citizens?? Deplorable.
I do not have all the answers, nor do I feel it is my job to have them. Guido is right, it IS a mess. Of course, Where is right, too! It does work for some of us and I am one of those So what have we got to lose? It is already fu$#@& up!! I HAVE health care and I can see a doctor ANYTIME. But it is not me that I worry about. I believe SOMETHNG needs to be done and it is up to the politicans to do it because NO ONE ELSE WILL! The Republicans (my party) want to fight it, the Democrats want to debate it, the insurance industry wants to kill it and the religious folks want to pray about it....I want to see action. If Obama has a plan and wants to try it, I say GO FOR IT. All I ask it that he DO something and stop yammering on and on about it while good, legitimate Americans get sicker and sicker. |
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| [Deep Freeze] Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:54:15 AM | |
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Thanks, Ron!! I liked it too....HAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:39:37 AM)| | | ron h wrote: | | Well said!! 
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Holy CRAP!!! Guido..? In the SOCIAL Thread?!??!?!?!?!? HA!!!!!!!!!!!! I have seen it all now! GREAT comments from all, I must say. Now for MINE!!!;
Most of you here know my situation and the series of events that led me to where I am today. The "system" is a nightmare for those that really need it...at least from my experience. Now then, I say this only because I went through a HORRIBLE experience, emerged on the other side and now have to watch as a loved one is beaten down. You see, I have reached the point where there is nothing more for me to worry about. But, the Princess is gravely ill and NO insurance company will take her. Not at ANY price. She requires monthy medications and phlebotomies once every three months or so and NO ONE will help us. No one.
We live in the greatest, richest most powerful country on earth and yet our citizens do not have health care as a RIGHT???? I find that deplorable. As far as paying for it, do any of you know the exact number of "pet" projects and "pork" that are funded every year?? And that is only the start. Waste in government is well documented. We can blow up other people very well and with great precision but we cannot care for our own citizens?? Deplorable.
I do not have all the answers, nor do I feel it is my job to have them. Guido is right, it IS a mess. Of course, Where is right, too! It does work for some of us and I am one of those So what have we got to lose? It is already fu$#@& up!! I HAVE health care and I can see a doctor ANYTIME. But it is not me that I worry about. I believe SOMETHNG needs to be done and it is up to the politicans to do it because NO ONE ELSE WILL! The Republicans (my party) want to fight it, the Democrats want to debate it, the insurance industry wants to kill it and the religious folks want to pray about it....I want to see action. If Obama has a plan and wants to try it, I say GO FOR IT. All I ask it that he DO something and stop yammering on and on about it while good, legitimate Americans get sicker and sicker. |
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| [ron h] Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:39:37 AM | |
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Well said!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:06:50 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Holy CRAP!!! Guido..? In the SOCIAL Thread?!??!?!?!?!? HA!!!!!!!!!!!! I have seen it all now! GREAT comments from all, I must say. Now for MINE!!!;
Most of you here know my situation and the series of events that led me to where I am today. The "system" is a nightmare for those that really need it...at least from my experience. Now then, I say this only because I went through a HORRIBLE experience, emerged on the other side and now have to watch as a loved one is beaten down. You see, I have reached the point where there is nothing more for me to worry about. But, the Princess is gravely ill and NO insurance company will take her. Not at ANY price. She requires monthy medications and phlebotomies once every three months or so and NO ONE will help us. No one.
We live in the greatest, richest most powerful country on earth and yet our citizens do not have health care as a RIGHT???? I find that deplorable. As far as paying for it, do any of you know the exact number of "pet" projects and "pork" that are funded every year?? And that is only the start. Waste in government is well documented. We can blow up other people very well and with great precision but we cannot care for our own citizens?? Deplorable.
I do not have all the answers, nor do I feel it is my job to have them. Guido is right, it IS a mess. Of course, Where is right, too! It does work for some of us and I am one of those So what have we got to lose? It is already fu$#@& up!! I HAVE health care and I can see a doctor ANYTIME. But it is not me that I worry about. I believe SOMETHNG needs to be done and it is up to the politicans to do it because NO ONE ELSE WILL! The Republicans (my party) want to fight it, the Democrats want to debate it, the insurance industry wants to kill it and the religious folks want to pray about it....I want to see action. If Obama has a plan and wants to try it, I say GO FOR IT. All I ask it that he DO something and stop yammering on and on about it while good, legitimate Americans get sicker and sicker. |
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| [Deep Freeze] Sunday, September 13, 2009 8:06:50 AM | |
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Holy CRAP!!! Guido..? In the SOCIAL Thread?!??!?!?!?!? HA!!!!!!!!!!!! I have seen it all now! GREAT comments from all, I must say. Now for MINE!!!;
Most of you here know my situation and the series of events that led me to where I am today. The "system" is a nightmare for those that really need it...at least from my experience. Now then, I say this only because I went through a HORRIBLE experience, emerged on the other side and now have to watch as a loved one is beaten down. You see, I have reached the point where there is nothing more for me to worry about. But, the Princess is gravely ill and NO insurance company will take her. Not at ANY price. She requires monthy medications and phlebotomies once every three months or so and NO ONE will help us. No one.
We live in the greatest, richest most powerful country on earth and yet our citizens do not have health care as a RIGHT???? I find that deplorable. As far as paying for it, do any of you know the exact number of "pet" projects and "pork" that are funded every year?? And that is only the start. Waste in government is well documented. We can blow up other people very well and with great precision but we cannot care for our own citizens?? Deplorable.
I do not have all the answers, nor do I feel it is my job to have them. Guido is right, it IS a mess. Of course, Where is right, too! It does work for some of us and I am one of those So what have we got to lose? It is already fu$#@& up!! I HAVE health care and I can see a doctor ANYTIME. But it is not me that I worry about. I believe SOMETHNG needs to be done and it is up to the politicans to do it because NO ONE ELSE WILL! The Republicans (my party) want to fight it, the Democrats want to debate it, the insurance industry wants to kill it and the religious folks want to pray about it....I want to see action. If Obama has a plan and wants to try it, I say GO FOR IT. All I ask it that he DO something and stop yammering on and on about it while good, legitimate Americans get sicker and sicker. |
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| [.] Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:04:14 AM | |
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Not at all, Guido. Why rip apart perfectly valid statements and concerns?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:21:30 AM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | No problem. Now I'll let the others rip these statements apart and go back to my happiness in the "Listening to now" thread, etc.!
| | | Becks wrote: | | Thanks for the input Guido, it's very interesting to read  it's sad to hear about how few people can really afford what they need health care wise. Pharmaceutical company wise, the only advertisments we ever see are for Cialis or Viagra, and the occasional pain medication. It's very very rare to see any advertisements on the television or in magazines for medicines. It sounds like due to the large scale of advertising by the companies there, the taxes that should go towards better health care etc are going to these companies to flout their wares so to speak. That's sad. I know what you mean by top heavy goverment when it comes to healthcare - we have what are called District Health boards, and there is a ridiculous number of them for such a small country. They are too top heavy, too many people trying to run everything and things get stuffed up. Example, the childrens oncology department at Wellington Hospital (our capital city) has had to close (temporarily) due to their speicialists leaving as the DHB has no idea about retaining them or running the department (and other departments truth be told) - they are too concerned with their pay packets and other things that Joe Public really doesn't care about in the scheme of things. That's the worse case thing here at the moment.
Again, thanks for the input! Very interesting to read
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Well, I honestly don't think (nay, I KNOW) that the average American has no idea what TRUE communism actuactually means, I really think that it has very little to do with the argument. Those days are long past. More like what you said at the beginning. We pay a small fortune in taxes as it is with very little return. Can / should we learn from other countries? I have never met a person on the streets to say "no." They are more worried in that we can afford / take better care of our pets than we can ourselves. Get hurt? It usually turns out in a fight between you and your insurance company as to whether this or that procedure was actually needed. Malpractice lawsuits has a big role in this as does advertising for this and that drug. After all, the pharmaceutical corporations have HUGE political power here in the States. Don't know about there but here there are certain times of the day when every other commercial on TV is from another drug company. THAT is sad and only adds to the cost. Even sadder is that most go with generic equivalents anyway as they are cheaper for those WITH insurance. Co-pay is less. See a Dr. here and you best know what you have before you walk into their office as they will only spend about five minutes with you. Many states are suffering a major Dr. shortage as they are not protected from lawsuits. Now imagine yourself a Dr. and have to get paid from the government once you complete a service. Again, everything done by the government pretty much ends up as a complete mess as we are too top-heavy.
So, no, Not fear of communism. More the fear of ever-rising taxes, healthcare costs and co-pays. If you notice, my comments don't even breach the "system" trying to cover the countless illegals living here tax free. Hey, my little brother is living in Canada "under the radar" to avoid many of these problems.
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| [.] Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:01:38 AM | |
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I agree with what you say except that last part where you said about the government botching the system. Having been born and raised in a public health care system, and having experienced more than one country's public healthcare system, I have to say I disagree, since I was taken care of just fine and having contributed to both didn't break my piggybank. This current system here in the US kills any chance at people saving some money and having equal treatment at point-of-care. If you make no money, you can use Medicaid and Medicare. If you are wealthy enough to be able to pay $1000 each month, plus any extras, then it's ok. Those in between are bummed because they make too much to qualify for assistance but too little to afford the private.
It leaves the majority of the country's population - the one that is a contributor in taxes and the true generator of wealth, very unprotected. To depend on charity is like depending on winning at the blackjack table every day for your income.
Medicare, Medicaid and Veteran and Military Health Care are government-run systems and they work fine. The issue of funding has more to do with politicking than with the costs associated with the system itself. A government is always in a better position to negotiate lower rates of care and lower medication prices than a small or a mid-size company.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:36:54 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Well, I honestly don't think (nay, I KNOW) that the average American has no idea what TRUE communism actuactually means, I really think that it has very little to do with the argument. Those days are long past. More like what you said at the beginning. We pay a small fortune in taxes as it is with very little return. Can / should we learn from other countries? I have never met a person on the streets to say "no." They are more worried in that we can afford / take better care of our pets than we can ourselves. Get hurt? It usually turns out in a fight between you and your insurance company as to whether this or that procedure was actually needed. Malpractice lawsuits has a big role in this as does advertising for this and that drug. After all, the pharmaceutical corporations have HUGE political power here in the States. Don't know about there but here there are certain times of the day when every other commercial on TV is from another drug company. THAT is sad and only adds to the cost. Even sadder is that most go with generic equivalents anyway as they are cheaper for those WITH insurance. Co-pay is less. See a Dr. here and you best know what you have before you walk into their office as they will only spend about five minutes with you. Many states are suffering a major Dr. shortage as they are not protected from lawsuits. Now imagine yourself a Dr. and have to get paid from the government once you complete a service. Again, everything done by the government pretty much ends up as a complete mess as we are too top-heavy.
So, no, Not fear of communism. More the fear of ever-rising taxes, healthcare costs and co-pays. If you notice, my comments don't even breach the "system" trying to cover the countless illegals living here tax free. Hey, my little brother is living in Canada "under the radar" to avoid many of these problems.
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| [guidogodoy] Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:21:30 AM | |
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No problem. Now I'll let the others rip these statements apart and go back to my happiness in the "Listening to now" thread, etc.!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Becks from Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:06:59 AM)| | | Becks wrote: | | Thanks for the input Guido, it's very interesting to read it's sad to hear about how few people can really afford what they need health care wise. Pharmaceutical company wise, the only advertisments we ever see are for Cialis or Viagra, and the occasional pain medication. It's very very rare to see any advertisements on the television or in magazines for medicines. It sounds like due to the large scale of advertising by the companies there, the taxes that should go towards better health care etc are going to these companies to flout their wares so to speak. That's sad. I know what you mean by top heavy goverment when it comes to healthcare - we have what are called District Health boards, and there is a ridiculous number of them for such a small country. They are too top heavy, too many people trying to run everything and things get stuffed up. Example, the childrens oncology department at Wellington Hospital (our capital city) has had to close (temporarily) due to their speicialists leaving as the DHB has no idea about retaining them or running the department (and other departments truth be told) - they are too concerned with their pay packets and other things that Joe Public really doesn't care about in the scheme of things. That's the worse case thing here at the moment.
Again, thanks for the input! Very interesting to read
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Well, I honestly don't think (nay, I KNOW) that the average American has no idea what TRUE communism actuactually means, I really think that it has very little to do with the argument. Those days are long past. More like what you said at the beginning. We pay a small fortune in taxes as it is with very little return. Can / should we learn from other countries? I have never met a person on the streets to say "no." They are more worried in that we can afford / take better care of our pets than we can ourselves. Get hurt? It usually turns out in a fight between you and your insurance company as to whether this or that procedure was actually needed. Malpractice lawsuits has a big role in this as does advertising for this and that drug. After all, the pharmaceutical corporations have HUGE political power here in the States. Don't know about there but here there are certain times of the day when every other commercial on TV is from another drug company. THAT is sad and only adds to the cost. Even sadder is that most go with generic equivalents anyway as they are cheaper for those WITH insurance. Co-pay is less. See a Dr. here and you best know what you have before you walk into their office as they will only spend about five minutes with you. Many states are suffering a major Dr. shortage as they are not protected from lawsuits. Now imagine yourself a Dr. and have to get paid from the government once you complete a service. Again, everything done by the government pretty much ends up as a complete mess as we are too top-heavy.
So, no, Not fear of communism. More the fear of ever-rising taxes, healthcare costs and co-pays. If you notice, my comments don't even breach the "system" trying to cover the countless illegals living here tax free. Hey, my little brother is living in Canada "under the radar" to avoid many of these problems.
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| [Becks] Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:06:59 AM | |
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Thanks for the input Guido, it's very interesting to read it's sad to hear about how few people can really afford what they need health care wise. Pharmaceutical company wise, the only advertisments we ever see are for Cialis or Viagra, and the occasional pain medication. It's very very rare to see any advertisements on the television or in magazines for medicines. It sounds like due to the large scale of advertising by the companies there, the taxes that should go towards better health care etc are going to these companies to flout their wares so to speak. That's sad. I know what you mean by top heavy goverment when it comes to healthcare - we have what are called District Health boards, and there is a ridiculous number of them for such a small country. They are too top heavy, too many people trying to run everything and things get stuffed up. Example, the childrens oncology department at Wellington Hospital (our capital city) has had to close (temporarily) due to their speicialists leaving as the DHB has no idea about retaining them or running the department (and other departments truth be told) - they are too concerned with their pay packets and other things that Joe Public really doesn't care about in the scheme of things. That's the worse case thing here at the moment.
Again, thanks for the input! Very interesting to read
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:36:54 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Well, I honestly don't think (nay, I KNOW) that the average American has no idea what TRUE communism actuactually means, I really think that it has very little to do with the argument. Those days are long past. More like what you said at the beginning. We pay a small fortune in taxes as it is with very little return. Can / should we learn from other countries? I have never met a person on the streets to say "no." They are more worried in that we can afford / take better care of our pets than we can ourselves. Get hurt? It usually turns out in a fight between you and your insurance company as to whether this or that procedure was actually needed. Malpractice lawsuits has a big role in this as does advertising for this and that drug. After all, the pharmaceutical corporations have HUGE political power here in the States. Don't know about there but here there are certain times of the day when every other commercial on TV is from another drug company. THAT is sad and only adds to the cost. Even sadder is that most go with generic equivalents anyway as they are cheaper for those WITH insurance. Co-pay is less. See a Dr. here and you best know what you have before you walk into their office as they will only spend about five minutes with you. Many states are suffering a major Dr. shortage as they are not protected from lawsuits. Now imagine yourself a Dr. and have to get paid from the government once you complete a service. Again, everything done by the government pretty much ends up as a complete mess as we are too top-heavy.
So, no, Not fear of communism. More the fear of ever-rising taxes, healthcare costs and co-pays. If you notice, my comments don't even breach the "system" trying to cover the countless illegals living here tax free. Hey, my little brother is living in Canada "under the radar" to avoid many of these problems.
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| [guidogodoy] Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:36:54 PM | |
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Well, I honestly don't think (nay, I KNOW) that the average American has no idea what TRUE communism actuactually means, I really think that it has very little to do with the argument. Those days are long past. More like what you said at the beginning. We pay a small fortune in taxes as it is with very little return. Can / should we learn from other countries? I have never met a person on the streets to say "no." They are more worried in that we can afford / take better care of our pets than we can ourselves. Get hurt? It usually turns out in a fight between you and your insurance company as to whether this or that procedure was actually needed. Malpractice lawsuits has a big role in this as does advertising for this and that drug. After all, the pharmaceutical corporations have HUGE political power here in the States. Don't know about there but here there are certain times of the day when every other commercial on TV is from another drug company. THAT is sad and only adds to the cost. Even sadder is that most go with generic equivalents anyway as they are cheaper for those WITH insurance. Co-pay is less. See a Dr. here and you best know what you have before you walk into their office as they will only spend about five minutes with you. Many states are suffering a major Dr. shortage as they are not protected from lawsuits. Now imagine yourself a Dr. and have to get paid from the government once you complete a service. Again, everything done by the government pretty much ends up as a complete mess as we are too top-heavy.
So, no, Not fear of communism. More the fear of ever-rising taxes, healthcare costs and co-pays. If you notice, my comments don't even breach the "system" trying to cover the countless illegals living here tax free. Hey, my little brother is living in Canada "under the radar" to avoid many of these problems.
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| [Becks] Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:08:50 PM | |
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Ahhh thanks for that Guid. So the people are worried that changes made by the government will inflate prices of insurance etc? You pay a lot of tax, and don't see any return. That's sad really. It's also sad how much health insurance costs there too, I've heard some staggering numbers! I pay $32 a month for almost full healthcare coverage - I'm actually looking at changing insurance companies to a company who will charge me about the same every month, but I will be covered entirely i.e. if I needed major heart surgery, amounting to like $50k or even more, it would be covered; non goverment subsidised medications are covered too. I don't understand how other countries can sort out their health care stuff so easily compared to the States. What I am taking from what you've said is, people are scared that if the state takes over running of healthcare, its a step toward communism?? It's all very confusing for me LOL and like I said, I just don't understand how many other countries can have it all worked out, but America can't. Granted, different strokes for different folks, but why not look at places where it works and taking a small leaf out of their books? Although if the US government can't pay for it, as you say, that makes things very difficult.
That was a bit waffly sorry LOL, like I said, it's confusing for me, but you did clear it up a bit!  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:52:54 PM)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Hiya Becks,
While not a regular to this particular thread (actually, I avoid it like the plague), I can shed a bit of light on the subject as I do follow both sides. While it certainly depends upon the person you trust when getting your "news," the biggest protest is a state run anything. Most have turned out to be classic failures in this country. We no longer own our country, unemployment is sky-high, and every other house around here seems to be for sale and / or being lost due to foreclosure. Social security was a bad idea and is in due to run out in my lifetime and our social services are taxed to the limit. Catch a cold? Just TRY to see a doctor around here. It is to the emergency room for those with insurance, that is. Quite sad, really.
Obama isn't the first to try healthcare reform. Like Social Security, all know the system is broken but no one can really fix it. To me, Obama simply can't pay for it. His plan would come up with a state-run system that has major faults. It would be a cheaper alternative to those of us with insurance paid by our employers and would, eventually, bring further debt and make one have to fight for basic care. The fact that not a single Senator would apparently sign up for this option his/her self is telling. THAT is where people calling "communism" comes into play. If you do well, economically, why would you be forced to give up even more of your pay to pay for a state run healthcare system? My family is in the medical field and most don't like it. They complain that the already skyrocketing price of healthcare in this country would get worse as prices would suffer artificial inflation when the private insurance firms are effectively pushed out by the government.
So...can't pay for it would be my general answer. We are already taxed like crazy. Healthcare costs are artificially high as it is and Obama is really flopping about what HIS ideas are and how he can pay for them.
Just my 2cents and anyone who really knows me knows that I am NOT an Obama hater. Not just Americans exercising "free speech" nor organizations moving their followers to disrupt these "town hall meetings," IMO. Just an awful lot of us who pay a literal ton in taxes with very little payback as it is just asking some quite valid questions about this new plan.
Like the Ford buyout, we weren't asked and the government just stepped in without asking if We the People wanted to buy Ford. Hasn't really helped yet.
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Becks wrote: |
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Ok maybe some of my American friends on here can help me out with this, cos something that's going on over there at the moment is really puzzling.
I've just seen on the news hoardes of Americans protesting against President Obamas healthcare plan. What is wrong with this plan that people feel the need to protest about it? Are some people listening to the likes of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity a bit too much? I see Obama getting called a socialist, marxist, communist - whether or not the people saying these things have any idea what they mean, I don't know, some of them spout those things of in one breath seemingly unaware that they are all different things. Is it scaremongering from President Obamas opponents, trying to make people believe the new healthcare plan will cover illegal immigrants, that his policies are socialist etc? Can anyone shed any light on this for me - cos at the moment a lot of the people I see complaining actually look pretty stupid cos it doesn't seem any of them really know why they are protesting and what about exactly. Or are just protesting because they can LOL! |
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Edited at: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:10:23 PM |
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| [guidogodoy] Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:52:54 PM | |
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Hiya Becks,
While not a regular to this particular thread (actually, I avoid it like the plague), I can shed a bit of light on the subject as I do follow both sides. While it certainly depends upon the person you trust when getting your "news," the biggest protest is a state run anything. Most have turned out to be classic failures in this country. We no longer own our country, unemployment is sky-high, and every other house around here seems to be for sale and / or being lost due to foreclosure. Social security was a bad idea and is in due to run out in my lifetime and our social services are taxed to the limit. Catch a cold? Just TRY to see a doctor around here. It is to the emergency room for those with insurance, that is. Quite sad, really.
Obama isn't the first to try healthcare reform. Like Social Security, all know the system is broken but no one can really fix it. To me, Obama simply can't pay for it. His plan would come up with a state-run system that has major faults. It would be a cheaper alternative to those of us with insurance paid by our employers and would, eventually, bring further debt and make one have to fight for basic care. The fact that not a single Senator would apparently sign up for this option his/her self is telling. THAT is where people calling "communism" comes into play. If you do well, economically, why would you be forced to give up even more of your pay to pay for a state run healthcare system? My family is in the medical field and most don't like it. They complain that the already skyrocketing price of healthcare in this country would get worse as prices would suffer artificial inflation when the private insurance firms are effectively pushed out by the government.
So...can't pay for it would be my general answer. We are already taxed like crazy. Healthcare costs are artificially high as it is and Obama is really flopping about what HIS ideas are and how he can pay for them.
Just my 2cents and anyone who really knows me knows that I am NOT an Obama hater. Not just Americans exercising "free speech" nor organizations moving their followers to disrupt these "town hall meetings," IMO. Just an awful lot of us who pay a literal ton in taxes with very little payback as it is just asking some quite valid questions about this new plan.
Like the Ford buyout, we weren't asked and the government just stepped in without asking if We the People wanted to buy Ford. Hasn't really helped yet.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Becks from Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:16:10 PM)| | | Becks wrote: | | Ok maybe some of my American friends on here can help me out with this, cos something that's going on over there at the moment is really puzzling.
I've just seen on the news hoardes of Americans protesting against President Obamas healthcare plan. What is wrong with this plan that people feel the need to protest about it? Are some people listening to the likes of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity a bit too much? I see Obama getting called a socialist, marxist, communist - whether or not the people saying these things have any idea what they mean, I don't know, some of them spout those things of in one breath seemingly unaware that they are all different things. Is it scaremongering from President Obamas opponents, trying to make people believe the new healthcare plan will cover illegal immigrants, that his policies are socialist etc? Can anyone shed any light on this for me - cos at the moment a lot of the people I see complaining actually look pretty stupid cos it doesn't seem any of them really know why they are protesting and what about exactly. Or are just protesting because they can LOL! |
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| [Becks] Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:16:10 PM | |
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Ok maybe some of my American friends on here can help me out with this, cos something that's going on over there at the moment is really puzzling.
I've just seen on the news hoardes of Americans protesting against President Obamas healthcare plan. What is wrong with this plan that people feel the need to protest about it? Are some people listening to the likes of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity a bit too much? I see Obama getting called a socialist, marxist, communist - whether or not the people saying these things have any idea what they mean, I don't know, some of them spout those things of in one breath seemingly unaware that they are all different things. Is it scaremongering from President Obamas opponents, trying to make people believe the new healthcare plan will cover illegal immigrants, that his policies are socialist etc? Can anyone shed any light on this for me - cos at the moment a lot of the people I see complaining actually look pretty stupid cos it doesn't seem any of them really know why they are protesting and what about exactly. Or are just protesting because they can LOL! |
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| [Bev] Wednesday, September 02, 2009 3:08:36 PM | |
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| [J.D. DIAMOND] Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:41:44 PM | |
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HA! You can start with member "Where AmI"...he apparently attacks members in here for NO reason whatsover.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:45:59 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | so, do we want a slower or quicker death for scumbags. I vote for speed. sure making them suffer would be nice, but there are so many.... would get very tirring.
| | | J.D. DIAMOND wrote: | | lol! Actually spapad...either would be painful but shot peening would do far more damage at least quicker..how about that! lol! Sand blast would be painfull but a slower death...
as shot peening is metallic cast steel shot...basically being peened by small steel "b.b.s"...as in a b.b. gun....lol!!
(Quoting Message by spapad from Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:37:45 PM)
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spapad wrote: |
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Which brings us back to Shot Peening vs. Sandblasting. I'm leaning more toward the sandblasting now as I believe it would be more painful! HA!! I wish I could sand blast all illegal oders to our facility too, and then give them back to the UPS man. As for all the calls, why doesn't office etiquett dictate it is OK to blast a Fog horn in to the phone, so the Paper pirate callers will get the message? Seems perfectly acceptable if shut the office door and then tell them kindly "I'll transfer you to Mr. Horn, please hold", then BLAST away!
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Head banger wrote: |
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I had a used car dealer call me up for payment for the 28 used fords he was delivering. gave me the name of the director of fleet. so I pointed out that they do all payments via wire transfer, and he would have an agreement for the payment, and a address to submit document to, not to mention I would have coppies of the PO and we didnt buy any used cars in the past 20 years here. sigh, it takes all kinds I supose. some of the kinds though it would be nice to eliminate.
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spapad wrote: |
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We have gotten some seriously messed up stuff! I reject it when it comes in, but some of the Authorization has been from talking to voice mail! WTF!!! Anymore, I don't let any calls into the building unless I ask the person WHO is calling and WHAT company they represent and what they want. Then I either hang up on them or send them to "General mail" which I control. I know the names of our legitimate vendors and I don't let these fools pass.
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Head banger wrote: |
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Fraud of all types is up significantly in the last few years, and I believe thats normal in a recession. fucking dirtbags need to go straight to hell.
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spapad wrote: |
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Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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Edited at: Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:34:18 AM |
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| [Head banger] Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:45:59 AM | |
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so, do we want a slower or quicker death for scumbags. I vote for speed. sure making them suffer would be nice, but there are so many.... would get very tirring.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by J.D. DIAMOND from Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:33:34 AM)| | | J.D. DIAMOND wrote: | | lol! Actually spapad...either would be painful but shot peening would do far more damage at least quicker..how about that! lol! Sand blast would be painfull but a slower death...
as shot peening is metallic cast steel shot...basically being peened by small steel "b.b.s"...as in a b.b. gun....lol!!
(Quoting Message by spapad from Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:37:45 PM)
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spapad wrote: |
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Which brings us back to Shot Peening vs. Sandblasting. I'm leaning more toward the sandblasting now as I believe it would be more painful! HA!! I wish I could sand blast all illegal oders to our facility too, and then give them back to the UPS man. As for all the calls, why doesn't office etiquett dictate it is OK to blast a Fog horn in to the phone, so the Paper pirate callers will get the message? Seems perfectly acceptable if shut the office door and then tell them kindly "I'll transfer you to Mr. Horn, please hold", then BLAST away!
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Head banger wrote: |
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I had a used car dealer call me up for payment for the 28 used fords he was delivering. gave me the name of the director of fleet. so I pointed out that they do all payments via wire transfer, and he would have an agreement for the payment, and a address to submit document to, not to mention I would have coppies of the PO and we didnt buy any used cars in the past 20 years here. sigh, it takes all kinds I supose. some of the kinds though it would be nice to eliminate.
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spapad wrote: |
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We have gotten some seriously messed up stuff! I reject it when it comes in, but some of the Authorization has been from talking to voice mail! WTF!!! Anymore, I don't let any calls into the building unless I ask the person WHO is calling and WHAT company they represent and what they want. Then I either hang up on them or send them to "General mail" which I control. I know the names of our legitimate vendors and I don't let these fools pass.
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Head banger wrote: |
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Fraud of all types is up significantly in the last few years, and I believe thats normal in a recession. fucking dirtbags need to go straight to hell.
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spapad wrote: |
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Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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Edited at: Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:34:18 AM |
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| [J.D. DIAMOND] Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:33:34 AM | |
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lol! Actually spapad...either would be painful but shot peening would do far more damage at least quicker..how about that! lol! Sand blast would be painfull but a slower death...
as shot peening is metallic cast steel shot...basically being peened by small steel "b.b.s"...as in a b.b. gun....lol!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:37:45 PM)
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spapad wrote: |
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Which brings us back to Shot Peening vs. Sandblasting. I'm leaning more toward the sandblasting now as I believe it would be more painful! HA!! I wish I could sand blast all illegal oders to our facility too, and then give them back to the UPS man. As for all the calls, why doesn't office etiquett dictate it is OK to blast a Fog horn in to the phone, so the Paper pirate callers will get the message? Seems perfectly acceptable if shut the office door and then tell them kindly "I'll transfer you to Mr. Horn, please hold", then BLAST away!
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Head banger wrote: |
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I had a used car dealer call me up for payment for the 28 used fords he was delivering. gave me the name of the director of fleet. so I pointed out that they do all payments via wire transfer, and he would have an agreement for the payment, and a address to submit document to, not to mention I would have coppies of the PO and we didnt buy any used cars in the past 20 years here. sigh, it takes all kinds I supose. some of the kinds though it would be nice to eliminate.
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spapad wrote: |
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We have gotten some seriously messed up stuff! I reject it when it comes in, but some of the Authorization has been from talking to voice mail! WTF!!! Anymore, I don't let any calls into the building unless I ask the person WHO is calling and WHAT company they represent and what they want. Then I either hang up on them or send them to "General mail" which I control. I know the names of our legitimate vendors and I don't let these fools pass.
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Head banger wrote: |
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Fraud of all types is up significantly in the last few years, and I believe thats normal in a recession. fucking dirtbags need to go straight to hell.
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spapad wrote: |
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Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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Edited at: Thursday, August 27, 2009 3:34:18 AM |
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:07:38 PM | |
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yeah, apparently they frown no screaming "FUCK OFF AND DIE ASSHOLE" into the phone at work.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:37:45 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Which brings us back to Shot Peening vs. Sandblasting. I'm leaning more toward the sandblasting now as I believe it would be more painful! HA!! I wish I could sand blast all illegal oders to our facility too, and then give them back to the UPS man. As for all the calls, why doesn't office etiquett dictate it is OK to blast a Fog horn in to the phone, so the Paper pirate callers will get the message? Seems perfectly acceptable if shut the office door and then tell them kindly "I'll transfer you to Mr. Horn, please hold", then BLAST away!
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I had a used car dealer call me up for payment for the 28 used fords he was delivering. gave me the name of the director of fleet. so I pointed out that they do all payments via wire transfer, and he would have an agreement for the payment, and a address to submit document to, not to mention I would have coppies of the PO and we didnt buy any used cars in the past 20 years here. sigh, it takes all kinds I supose. some of the kinds though it would be nice to eliminate.
| | | spapad wrote: | | We have gotten some seriously messed up stuff! I reject it when it comes in, but some of the Authorization has been from talking to voice mail! WTF!!! Anymore, I don't let any calls into the building unless I ask the person WHO is calling and WHAT company they represent and what they want. Then I either hang up on them or send them to "General mail" which I control. I know the names of our legitimate vendors and I don't let these fools pass.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Fraud of all types is up significantly in the last few years, and I believe thats normal in a recession. fucking dirtbags need to go straight to hell.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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| [spapad] Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:37:45 PM | |
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Which brings us back to Shot Peening vs. Sandblasting. I'm leaning more toward the sandblasting now as I believe it would be more painful! HA!! I wish I could sand blast all illegal oders to our facility too, and then give them back to the UPS man. As for all the calls, why doesn't office etiquett dictate it is OK to blast a Fog horn in to the phone, so the Paper pirate callers will get the message? Seems perfectly acceptable if shut the office door and then tell them kindly "I'll transfer you to Mr. Horn, please hold", then BLAST away!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:39:32 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | I had a used car dealer call me up for payment for the 28 used fords he was delivering. gave me the name of the director of fleet. so I pointed out that they do all payments via wire transfer, and he would have an agreement for the payment, and a address to submit document to, not to mention I would have coppies of the PO and we didnt buy any used cars in the past 20 years here. sigh, it takes all kinds I supose. some of the kinds though it would be nice to eliminate.
| | | spapad wrote: | | We have gotten some seriously messed up stuff! I reject it when it comes in, but some of the Authorization has been from talking to voice mail! WTF!!! Anymore, I don't let any calls into the building unless I ask the person WHO is calling and WHAT company they represent and what they want. Then I either hang up on them or send them to "General mail" which I control. I know the names of our legitimate vendors and I don't let these fools pass.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Fraud of all types is up significantly in the last few years, and I believe thats normal in a recession. fucking dirtbags need to go straight to hell.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:39:32 AM | |
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I had a used car dealer call me up for payment for the 28 used fords he was delivering. gave me the name of the director of fleet. so I pointed out that they do all payments via wire transfer, and he would have an agreement for the payment, and a address to submit document to, not to mention I would have coppies of the PO and we didnt buy any used cars in the past 20 years here. sigh, it takes all kinds I supose. some of the kinds though it would be nice to eliminate.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:06:00 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | We have gotten some seriously messed up stuff! I reject it when it comes in, but some of the Authorization has been from talking to voice mail! WTF!!! Anymore, I don't let any calls into the building unless I ask the person WHO is calling and WHAT company they represent and what they want. Then I either hang up on them or send them to "General mail" which I control. I know the names of our legitimate vendors and I don't let these fools pass.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Fraud of all types is up significantly in the last few years, and I believe thats normal in a recession. fucking dirtbags need to go straight to hell.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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| [I.M.P.] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:19:45 PM | |
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Jeez, now that is some ugly stuff, the fraud...  |
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| [spapad] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:06:00 PM | |
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We have gotten some seriously messed up stuff! I reject it when it comes in, but some of the Authorization has been from talking to voice mail! WTF!!! Anymore, I don't let any calls into the building unless I ask the person WHO is calling and WHAT company they represent and what they want. Then I either hang up on them or send them to "General mail" which I control. I know the names of our legitimate vendors and I don't let these fools pass.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57:40 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | Fraud of all types is up significantly in the last few years, and I believe thats normal in a recession. fucking dirtbags need to go straight to hell.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57:40 PM | |
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Fraud of all types is up significantly in the last few years, and I believe thats normal in a recession. fucking dirtbags need to go straight to hell.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:55:24 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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| [spapad] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:55:24 PM | |
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Ok, you know I'm not very polically minded or not good at it, but I have noticed a huge increase in what we like to call "Paper pirates" They try to call your facility and act like they are someone else and then send you something weather or not you actually agreed to have it sent at a mark up of 300% Reallly! Who asks you to pay 800.00 for a bulk of floresent lights!? I have learned to sort these people out before they come in contact with the orderers now. Anyone calling about our Copiers the magic words are " Are you with ROPHO Sales? (Which they would never contact us) and the caller hangs up straight away. Those shippers are nasty, and it takes vigillance to make sure their shipment does not stay in your facility.
Like I said maybe not political, but def a way people try to rip off large facilities. |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:51:50 PM | |
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the problem is the we is hard to define. if lots of people do well, and a few starve, the we is good.
your right in that this sort of thing spurs creative thinking. if too many lose though, it starts a downward spiral that is very hard to recover from. the recession in the 30's would have gone on a lot longer without WWII.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:47:12 PM)| | | I.M.P. wrote: | | "Us" or "we" being the ones affected by this recession.
New industry ideas is where the most benefit lies as far as I'm concerned. To make anything faster, cheaper, better, or more efficient requires a "need," the finger that does the prodding. Nobody innovates without a motivation. These kind of times spur some creative thinking, that's for sure. This is where the recession "helps" business and consumers in the long run.
That which doesn't kill you may become a festering infection. Stealing away needed energy.... If too many are forced to cut to the bone, and market conditions do not improve, what next..?
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:32:31 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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that which doesnt kill you makes you stronger???
define we.
some get more, some get less. hopefully new directions emerge, new industry and ideas, and more people end up in a stronger position.
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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New topic: The Recession.
Just a short bit here. What's going to kill the recession? I'm wondering if anybody who's in manufacturing or retail has been experiencing what we have recently. Hungry vendors and salesmen. It's like a tank full of piranhas-they're all out there for that fish. The cost of much stock product is going down for us here-I'm wondering how widespread this is. Is this happening in a good way? I think so. The fatty companies that can't handle price wars are driven out being replaced by the lean and mean ones that've figured out how to make a buck without waste. The only thing is, I don't know what's going on with raw materials. I don't know if companies are killing themselves to make a buck with raw materials cost rising or staying static...
This is the way of the free market. Self correcting and efficient. What's it mean for "us," good, bad, ugly....? |
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Edited at: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:48:04 PM |
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| [I.M.P.] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:47:12 PM | |
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"Us" or "we" being the ones affected by this recession.
New industry ideas is where the most benefit lies as far as I'm concerned. To make anything faster, cheaper, better, or more efficient requires a "need," the finger that does the prodding. Nobody innovates without a motivation. These kind of times spur some creative thinking, that's for sure. This is where the recession "helps" business and consumers in the long run.
That which doesn't kill you may become a festering infection. Stealing away needed energy.... If too many are forced to cut to the bone, and market conditions do not improve, what next..?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:32:31 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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that which doesnt kill you makes you stronger???
define we.
some get more, some get less. hopefully new directions emerge, new industry and ideas, and more people end up in a stronger position.
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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New topic: The Recession.
Just a short bit here. What's going to kill the recession? I'm wondering if anybody who's in manufacturing or retail has been experiencing what we have recently. Hungry vendors and salesmen. It's like a tank full of piranhas-they're all out there for that fish. The cost of much stock product is going down for us here-I'm wondering how widespread this is. Is this happening in a good way? I think so. The fatty companies that can't handle price wars are driven out being replaced by the lean and mean ones that've figured out how to make a buck without waste. The only thing is, I don't know what's going on with raw materials. I don't know if companies are killing themselves to make a buck with raw materials cost rising or staying static...
This is the way of the free market. Self correcting and efficient. What's it mean for "us," good, bad, ugly....? |
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Edited at: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:48:04 PM |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:32:31 PM | |
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that which doesnt kill you makes you stronger???
define we.
some get more, some get less. hopefully new directions emerge, new industry and ideas, and more people end up in a stronger position.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:31:35 PM)| | | I.M.P. wrote: | | New topic: The Recession.
Just a short bit here. What's going to kill the recession? I'm wondering if anybody who's in manufacturing or retail has been experiencing what we have recently. Hungry vendors and salesmen. It's like a tank full of piranhas-they're all out there for that fish. The cost of much stock product is going down for us here-I'm wondering how widespread this is. Is this happening in a good way? I think so. The fatty companies that can't handle price wars are driven out being replaced by the lean and mean ones that've figured out how to make a buck without waste. The only thing is, I don't know what's going on with raw materials. I don't know if companies are killing themselves to make a buck with raw materials cost rising or staying static...
This is the way of the free market. Self correcting and efficient. What's it mean for "us," good, bad, ugly....? |
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| [I.M.P.] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:31:35 PM | |
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New topic: The Recession.
Just a short bit here. What's going to kill the recession? I'm wondering if anybody who's in manufacturing or retail has been experiencing what we have recently. Hungry vendors and salesmen. It's like a tank full of piranhas-they're all out there for that fish. The cost of much stock product is going down for us here-I'm wondering how widespread this is. Is this happening in a good way? I think so. The fatty companies that can't handle price wars are driven out being replaced by the lean and mean ones that've figured out how to make a buck without waste. The only thing is, I don't know what's going on with raw materials. I don't know if companies are killing themselves to make a buck with raw materials cost rising or staying static...
This is the way of the free market. Self correcting and efficient. What's it mean for "us," good, bad, ugly....? |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:39:11 AM | |
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The book is interesting. I didnt bother typing the credit for that quote in as the date on it was 2051 and the name was no one I had ever heard of. I did think it a good summary though
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Monday, August 24, 2009 11:36:55 PM)| | | I.M.P. wrote: | | Yeah, my post seems kind of dumb now that I see you quoted this guy!
I wonder how the book shapes up from that quote.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts. |
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| [I.M.P.] Monday, August 24, 2009 11:36:55 PM | |
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Yeah, my post seems kind of dumb now that I see you quoted this guy!
I wonder how the book shapes up from that quote.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts. |
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| [I.M.P.] Monday, August 24, 2009 11:35:11 PM | |
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Well, I didn't read THAT post for some reason! Guess I had a short attention span and decided to reply to the first one down that caught my attention.
Yeah, that is interesting. Good summary of the way each operates.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 11:13:46 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | which oddly is the theme of the book I got all those quotes out of. unholy domain by dan ronco
| | | I.M.P. wrote: | | If there was no more mystery, oh well!
The day there is no mystery is when we're all run by machines anyway.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Eventually, maybe that will be it's end. They day we unlock the mysteries will probably be the day the earth explodes. Then, if wont matter!
| | | Head banger wrote: | | could science be a religion then? explaining that which can not be understood?
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [Head banger] Monday, August 24, 2009 11:13:46 PM | |
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which oddly is the theme of the book I got all those quotes out of. unholy domain by dan ronco
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Monday, August 24, 2009 11:08:28 PM)| | | I.M.P. wrote: | | If there was no more mystery, oh well!
The day there is no mystery is when we're all run by machines anyway.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Eventually, maybe that will be it's end. They day we unlock the mysteries will probably be the day the earth explodes. Then, if wont matter!
| | | Head banger wrote: | | could science be a religion then? explaining that which can not be understood?
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [Head banger] Monday, August 24, 2009 11:12:01 PM | |
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both are music fans (well, you know what I mean). a scientist has more in comon with a priest than a metal head with a miley fan....
dunno, its an interesting point of view.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Monday, August 24, 2009 11:06:02 PM)| | | I.M.P. wrote: | | Your previous post explains perfectly why science is not a religion-it is the stark differences between scientists and clerics. Facts=/=Faith. No way, no how.
The differences in approach is what defines each.
Can a cleric who claims things based on a book be called a scientist?
The emotional attachment that scientists have to their specific area of study, and who are part of hot button issues (like global warming) might be similar to a cleric's attachment to their religion. But that attachment is simply a by product of their persuit. The fervor of clerics and scientists is based on two completely different things. An imperfect analogy would be to compare the fervor between a Priest fan at a Priest show and a tween at a Hannah Montana show. The tween is not a metal head, despite the similarities in enthusiasm. The cleric is not a scientist. Both seek answers, both are defined by their method.
That is my two cents anyway.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | could science be a religion then? explaining that which can not be understood?
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [Head banger] Monday, August 24, 2009 11:10:56 PM | |
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that could be.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Monday, August 24, 2009 10:12:28 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Eventually, maybe that will be it's end. They day we unlock the mysteries will probably be the day the earth explodes. Then, if wont matter!
| | | Head banger wrote: | | could science be a religion then? explaining that which can not be understood?
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [I.M.P.] Monday, August 24, 2009 11:08:28 PM | |
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If there was no more mystery, oh well!
The day there is no mystery is when we're all run by machines anyway.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Monday, August 24, 2009 10:12:28 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Eventually, maybe that will be it's end. They day we unlock the mysteries will probably be the day the earth explodes. Then, if wont matter!
| | | Head banger wrote: | | could science be a religion then? explaining that which can not be understood?
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [I.M.P.] Monday, August 24, 2009 11:06:02 PM | |
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Your previous post explains perfectly why science is not a religion-it is the stark differences between scientists and clerics. Facts=/=Faith. No way, no how.
The differences in approach is what defines each.
Can a cleric who claims things based on a book be called a scientist?
The emotional attachment that scientists have to their specific area of study, and who are part of hot button issues (like global warming) might be similar to a cleric's attachment to their religion. But that attachment is simply a by product of their persuit. The fervor of clerics and scientists is based on two completely different things. An imperfect analogy would be to compare the fervor between a Priest fan at a Priest show and a tween at a Hannah Montana show. The tween is not a metal head, despite the similarities in enthusiasm. The cleric is not a scientist. Both seek answers, both are defined by their method.
That is my two cents anyway.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 10:03:15 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | could science be a religion then? explaining that which can not be understood?
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [spapad] Monday, August 24, 2009 10:12:28 PM | |
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Eventually, maybe that will be it's end. They day we unlock the mysteries will probably be the day the earth explodes. Then, if wont matter!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 10:03:15 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | could science be a religion then? explaining that which can not be understood?
| | | spapad wrote: | | Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [Head banger] Monday, August 24, 2009 10:03:15 PM | |
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could science be a religion then? explaining that which can not be understood?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:05 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [spapad] Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:05 PM | |
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Ya know I read something about this subject the other day which was a philosopical theory, that stated that mankind must be born to instictively to believe in a power greater to themselves, unless that instinct is counteracted by Parents, society, etc... As all cultures through time have had a need to seek out powers higher than themselves, I could consider this to be a Viable theory.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts.
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Edited at: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01:51 PM |
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| [Head banger] Monday, August 24, 2009 9:56:25 PM | |
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Scientists and clerics have much in common. Both take a world that can’t be fully understood and try to explain its fundamental properties
Clerics postulate beliefs that can never be proven; they demand you accept these postulates as your faith, which will guide your actions and thoughts. It’s a top down way of thinking; start with the big picture and derive rules for living. Fundamental knowledge is static. Even the derived rules rarely change.
Scientists work from the bottom up. They build a baseline of observations and formulate theories to explain these phenomena. Nothing is sacred, with new observations; theories are discarded or modified to fit the facts. |
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| [Head banger] Monday, August 24, 2009 9:47:59 PM | |
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Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a hearless world and the soul of soulless conditions. it is the opium of the people
Karl Marx, introduction to "contribution to the critique of Hegels philosophy, 1844 |
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| [Head banger] Monday, August 24, 2009 9:15:36 PM | |
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and for another view
sicience without religion is lame; religion without science is blind. Albert Einstein, Science and Religion, 1941
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Monday, August 24, 2009 8:53:40 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Nice HB!
| | | Head banger wrote: | | | science deals mainly with facts, religion deals mainly with values, the two are not rivals, they are complimentary. Martin Luther King, Jr. Strength to Love, 1963 |
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| [spapad] Monday, August 24, 2009 8:53:40 PM | |
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Nice HB!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, August 24, 2009 8:51:12 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | | science deals mainly with facts, religion deals mainly with values, the two are not rivals, they are complimentary. Martin Luther King, Jr. Strength to Love, 1963 |
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| [Head banger] Monday, August 24, 2009 8:51:12 PM | |
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| science deals mainly with facts, religion deals mainly with values, the two are not rivals, they are complimentary. Martin Luther King, Jr. Strength to Love, 1963 |
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| [Craig Wagenhoffer] Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:27:50 AM | |
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Normally I'm a very sceptical person. For example: I really don't believe that Planet X will enter the solar system during December 2012 AD and destroy humanity. That's bullshit and it cracks me up. LOL! But the people you see in that documentary are A grade scientists who teach at universities like Harvard. All their theories are based on facts and proof.
It's scary, because it makes me realize how insignificant we really are. The amount of time that has preceded our lifetime is endless, the amount that succeeds it will be endless as well. Going back a billion years in time would still mean nothing. There's no beginning and there's no end. It just goes on forever. Just think of it. It's crazy. I don't understand why some of these scientists don't end up in a mental institution.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by J.D. DIAMOND from Friday, August 21, 2009 5:39:33 PM)| | | J.D. DIAMOND wrote: | | Yeah thats some pretty heavy shit there Craig. But very interesting.... thats a cool post.
Hey,maybe in a parallel universe..."Metallica" never "sold out" or Cliff Burton never died!! lol!
But seriously....that is a very interesting subject and it is "scary" as you said...but mind blowing....
| | | Craig Wagenhoffer wrote: | | Yeah, I've heard about dark matter. It's crazy, but it makes sense.
Have you ever heard of parallel universes? Don't ask me to explain what it's all about, because it's too bizarre.
Here's a documentary I saw about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7SDrj4Tjvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHzU3fgID3o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVfw1XOIFGk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-mLF23JzKA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRRBz9b6mvA&feature=related
| | | ron h wrote: | | Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:35:31 AM | |
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Lol... Ive heard something like that once. Not a parallel universe, but this universe. Supposing that its infinite, that means that there is an infinite number of planets with life on them. No matter how rare they are, the number is still infinite. And it means that there is an infinite number of combinations of life, and an infinite number of planets like our, with an infinite number of worlds that are just like our, and an infinite number of worlds that are just like ours, save for a few details. No matter how rare, they are still infinite.
So, according to that logic, there are worlds without emos, worlds without Miley Cyrus, and worlds where George Bush wasnt taken from his chimp parents and adopted by humans.
Better start buliding a spaceship right away.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by J.D. DIAMOND from Friday, August 21, 2009 5:39:33 PM)| | | J.D. DIAMOND wrote: | | Yeah thats some pretty heavy shit there Craig. But very interesting.... thats a cool post.
Hey,maybe in a parallel universe..."Metallica" never "sold out" or Cliff Burton never died!! lol!
But seriously....that is a very interesting subject and it is "scary" as you said...but mind blowing....
| | | Craig Wagenhoffer wrote: | | Yeah, I've heard about dark matter. It's crazy, but it makes sense.
Have you ever heard of parallel universes? Don't ask me to explain what it's all about, because it's too bizarre.
Here's a documentary I saw about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7SDrj4Tjvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHzU3fgID3o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVfw1XOIFGk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-mLF23JzKA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRRBz9b6mvA&feature=related
| | | ron h wrote: | | Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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| [Bev] Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:18:09 AM | |
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| May be of little relevence to some and more to others. I posted this link once before in the old religion thread, a year or so ago. In case anyone cares to share yet another perspective: www.greggbraden.com/ |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:13:29 AM | |
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WRONG.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Friday, August 21, 2009 9:50:11 PM)| | | ron h wrote: | |  Well Strat, neither the Spaghetti Monster nor the Giant Chicken has a history as a supreme being or a book to help support their existance in history...call the Bible or Koran or whatever books fairy tales if you'd like, but there's at least documented facts in those books as well...no insult taken as you stated nothing I would find insulting...You should always beware of ppl who insist anything upon you!!!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, proving that he doesnt exist is, imo... Pointless. Religion comes forward with the claim that there is a god - religion has to prove that there is. So long as it doesnt, we can consider god as non-existent. If we are going to play the "prove that isnt so game", then we can all think of tons of outrageous stuff that cant be proven, but cant even be properly disproven. I think that it was Dawkins who came up with the idea of the "flying spaghetti monster". Lets say that I claim that god is a flying spaghetti monster - prove that he isnt. I can claim that a giant chicken laid an egg, and that became the Earth. Prove that isnt so. If I really believe it, you wont be able to convince me that it isnt so, neither will I be ever capable of proving that it is so.
So, "prove that isnt so" logic clearly wont get us anywhere. Sorry, didnt mean to insult anyones religious feelings, the giant chicken and the spaghetti monster are there just to sort of illustrate the point.
And, so long as there are people who are not content with just being religious, but insist that we should all share their religious values, and want to make those same values into laws and constitutions, then I think that we really should know wheter they are right or wrong in their faith.
| | | ron h wrote: | | Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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| [ron h] Friday, August 21, 2009 10:08:47 PM | |
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[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, August 21, 2009 10:02:15 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | You mean that I shouldn't have bought that year's supply of Extenze and invested the rest of my savings in gold?!? Oh crap!!!! (Quoting Message by ron h from Friday, August 21, 2009 9:50:11 PM)
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ron h wrote: |
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Well Strat, neither the Spaghetti Monster nor the Giant Chicken has a history as a supreme being or a book to help support their existance in history...call the Bible or Koran or whatever books fairy tales if you'd like, but there's at least documented facts in those books as well...no insult taken as you stated nothing I would find insulting...You should always beware of ppl who insist anything upon you!!!!
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, proving that he doesnt exist is, imo... Pointless. Religion comes forward with the claim that there is a god - religion has to prove that there is. So long as it doesnt, we can consider god as non-existent. If we are going to play the "prove that isnt so game", then we can all think of tons of outrageous stuff that cant be proven, but cant even be properly disproven. I think that it was Dawkins who came up with the idea of the "flying spaghetti monster". Lets say that I claim that god is a flying spaghetti monster - prove that he isnt. I can claim that a giant chicken laid an egg, and that became the Earth. Prove that isnt so. If I really believe it, you wont be able to convince me that it isnt so, neither will I be ever capable of proving that it is so.
So, "prove that isnt so" logic clearly wont get us anywhere. Sorry, didnt mean to insult anyones religious feelings, the giant chicken and the spaghetti monster are there just to sort of illustrate the point.
And, so long as there are people who are not content with just being religious, but insist that we should all share their religious values, and want to make those same values into laws and constitutions, then I think that we really should know wheter they are right or wrong in their faith.
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ron h wrote: |
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Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:02:57 PM |
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| [guidogodoy] Friday, August 21, 2009 10:02:15 PM | |
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You mean that I shouldn't have bought that year's supply of Extenze and invested the rest of my savings in gold?!? Oh crap!!!! [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Friday, August 21, 2009 9:50:11 PM)
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ron h wrote: |
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Well Strat, neither the Spaghetti Monster nor the Giant Chicken has a history as a supreme being or a book to help support their existance in history...call the Bible or Koran or whatever books fairy tales if you'd like, but there's at least documented facts in those books as well...no insult taken as you stated nothing I would find insulting...You should always beware of ppl who insist anything upon you!!!!
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, proving that he doesnt exist is, imo... Pointless. Religion comes forward with the claim that there is a god - religion has to prove that there is. So long as it doesnt, we can consider god as non-existent. If we are going to play the "prove that isnt so game", then we can all think of tons of outrageous stuff that cant be proven, but cant even be properly disproven. I think that it was Dawkins who came up with the idea of the "flying spaghetti monster". Lets say that I claim that god is a flying spaghetti monster - prove that he isnt. I can claim that a giant chicken laid an egg, and that became the Earth. Prove that isnt so. If I really believe it, you wont be able to convince me that it isnt so, neither will I be ever capable of proving that it is so.
So, "prove that isnt so" logic clearly wont get us anywhere. Sorry, didnt mean to insult anyones religious feelings, the giant chicken and the spaghetti monster are there just to sort of illustrate the point.
And, so long as there are people who are not content with just being religious, but insist that we should all share their religious values, and want to make those same values into laws and constitutions, then I think that we really should know wheter they are right or wrong in their faith.
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ron h wrote: |
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Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 10:02:57 PM |
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