| [ron h] Friday, August 21, 2009 9:50:11 PM | |
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 Well Strat, neither the Spaghetti Monster nor the Giant Chicken has a history as a supreme being or a book to help support their existance in history...call the Bible or Koran or whatever books fairy tales if you'd like, but there's at least documented facts in those books as well...no insult taken as you stated nothing I would find insulting...You should always beware of ppl who insist anything upon you!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Friday, August 21, 2009 7:27:00 AM)| |  | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, proving that he doesnt exist is, imo... Pointless. Religion comes forward with the claim that there is a god - religion has to prove that there is. So long as it doesnt, we can consider god as non-existent. If we are going to play the "prove that isnt so game", then we can all think of tons of outrageous stuff that cant be proven, but cant even be properly disproven. I think that it was Dawkins who came up with the idea of the "flying spaghetti monster". Lets say that I claim that god is a flying spaghetti monster - prove that he isnt. I can claim that a giant chicken laid an egg, and that became the Earth. Prove that isnt so. If I really believe it, you wont be able to convince me that it isnt so, neither will I be ever capable of proving that it is so.
So, "prove that isnt so" logic clearly wont get us anywhere. Sorry, didnt mean to insult anyones religious feelings, the giant chicken and the spaghetti monster are there just to sort of illustrate the point.
And, so long as there are people who are not content with just being religious, but insist that we should all share their religious values, and want to make those same values into laws and constitutions, then I think that we really should know wheter they are right or wrong in their faith.
| | | ron h wrote: | | Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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| [spapad] Friday, August 21, 2009 7:41:30 PM | |
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When you think that big. The mean weight of our milky way wouldn't even make a grain of sand on a beach if one was to use that analogy to show the emmenseness of the universe.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Craig Wagenhoffer from Friday, August 21, 2009 3:34:25 PM)| | | Craig Wagenhoffer wrote: | | I can agree with you, Strat.
A philosopher once said that "the only thing we know is that we know nothing". That's the only thing we can really take for granted. It sounds silly, but I agree with this. I think of it everytime I watch one of those space documentaries on NGC.
Religious people have a hard time to accept this. They prefer to live in a world that's black and white. I can understand that, it's very tempting to believe in such a world, because it's easy. I wish everything was black and white. It would make things a lot easier. But I know it doesn't work that way. We live in a grey world, with only a little a bit of black and white. So I'm not saying that there is no higher order, I'm saying that I don't know.
Just check out this picture. It's scary, mind-blowing and exciting at the same time. It makes you realize how little we know:
It's so vast. What's out there? Nobody knows. It makes you realize that everything is possible.
Here's a king size version of this picture: http://www.hauwaerts.be/wp-content/uploads/space.jpg
Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:35:43 PM |
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| [J.D. DIAMOND] Friday, August 21, 2009 5:39:33 PM | |
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Yeah thats some pretty heavy shit there Craig. But very interesting.... thats a cool post.
Hey,maybe in a parallel universe..."Metallica" never "sold out" or Cliff Burton never died!! lol!
But seriously....that is a very interesting subject and it is "scary" as you said...but mind blowing....
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Craig Wagenhoffer from Friday, August 21, 2009 4:41:58 PM)| | | Craig Wagenhoffer wrote: | | Yeah, I've heard about dark matter. It's crazy, but it makes sense.
Have you ever heard of parallel universes? Don't ask me to explain what it's all about, because it's too bizarre.
Here's a documentary I saw about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7SDrj4Tjvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHzU3fgID3o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVfw1XOIFGk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-mLF23JzKA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRRBz9b6mvA&feature=related
| | | ron h wrote: | | Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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| [Craig Wagenhoffer] Friday, August 21, 2009 4:41:58 PM | |
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Yeah, I've heard about dark matter. It's crazy, but it makes sense.
Have you ever heard of parallel universes? Don't ask me to explain what it's all about, because it's too bizarre.
Here's a documentary I saw about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7SDrj4Tjvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHzU3fgID3o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVfw1XOIFGk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-mLF23JzKA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRRBz9b6mvA&feature=related
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Friday, August 21, 2009 6:12:47 AM)| | | ron h wrote: | | Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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| [Craig Wagenhoffer] Friday, August 21, 2009 4:28:36 PM | |
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Yeah, it's really cool. It's called "The ultra deep field", but I'm sure you already know this. These pictures were taken by the Hubble telescope. Hubble is getting old and will stop functioning in 2013. By that time it's successor, the James Webb space telescope, will already be operating. The James Webb telescope will be much stronger than the Hubble. Very exciting to say the least.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, August 21, 2009 3:44:53 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Oh, those pix are way cool! 
| | | Craig Wagenhoffer wrote: | | I can agree with you, Strat.
A philosopher once said that "the only thing we know is that we know nothing". That's the only thing we can really take for granted. It sounds silly, but I agree with this. I think of it everytime I watch one of those space documentaries on NGC.
Religious people have a hard time to accept this. They prefer to live in a world that's black and white. I can understand that, it's very tempting to believe in such a world, because it's easy. I wish everything was black and white. It would make things a lot easier. But I know it doesn't work that way. We live in a grey world, with only a little a bit of black and white. So I'm not saying that there is no higher order, I'm saying that I don't know.
Just check out this picture. It's scary, mind-blowing and exciting at the same time. It makes you realize how little we know:
It's so vast. What's out there? Nobody knows. It makes you realize that everything is possible.
Here's a king size version of this picture: http://www.hauwaerts.be/wp-content/uploads/space.jpg
Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:35:43 PM |
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| [guidogodoy] Friday, August 21, 2009 3:44:53 PM | |
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Oh, those pix are way cool!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Craig Wagenhoffer from Friday, August 21, 2009 3:34:25 PM)| | | Craig Wagenhoffer wrote: | | I can agree with you, Strat.
A philosopher once said that "the only thing we know is that we know nothing". That's the only thing we can really take for granted. It sounds silly, but I agree with this. I think of it everytime I watch one of those space documentaries on NGC.
Religious people have a hard time to accept this. They prefer to live in a world that's black and white. I can understand that, it's very tempting to believe in such a world, because it's easy. I wish everything was black and white. It would make things a lot easier. But I know it doesn't work that way. We live in a grey world, with only a little a bit of black and white. So I'm not saying that there is no higher order, I'm saying that I don't know.
Just check out this picture. It's scary, mind-blowing and exciting at the same time. It makes you realize how little we know:
It's so vast. What's out there? Nobody knows. It makes you realize that everything is possible.
Here's a king size version of this picture: http://www.hauwaerts.be/wp-content/uploads/space.jpg
Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:35:43 PM |
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| [Craig Wagenhoffer] Friday, August 21, 2009 3:34:25 PM | |
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I can agree with you, Strat.
A philosopher once said that "the only thing we know is that we know nothing". That's the only thing we can really take for granted. It sounds silly, but I agree with this. I think of it everytime I watch one of those space documentaries on NGC.
Religious people have a hard time to accept this. They prefer to live in a world that's black and white. I can understand that, it's very tempting to believe in such a world, because it's easy. I wish everything was black and white. It would make things a lot easier. But I know it doesn't work that way. We live in a grey world, with only a little a bit of black and white. So I'm not saying that there is no higher order, I'm saying that I don't know.
Just check out this picture. It's scary, mind-blowing and exciting at the same time. It makes you realize how little we know:
It's so vast. What's out there? Nobody knows. It makes you realize that everything is possible.
Here's a king size version of this picture: http://www.hauwaerts.be/wp-content/uploads/space.jpg
Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 3:35:43 PM |
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| [Craig Wagenhoffer] Friday, August 21, 2009 3:02:09 PM | |
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Every major religion represents God as something perfect. But how can God be perfect if his very own creation, humankind, is the embodiment of the word "imperfect"? Just think about it. Most religions don't make sense. |
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| [Head banger] Friday, August 21, 2009 7:43:53 AM | |
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The main goal of science is to establish fact. but the main goal of scientists is not always the same. they are human, have their own biases and beliefs, and will aproach things from different points of view. some are trying to prove themselfs right, others want to use their "facts" to affect social change, some do it for money, some want to be famous.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)| | | I.M.P. wrote: | | In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | are religion and science nesesarily in conflict? |
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| [_strat_] Friday, August 21, 2009 7:27:00 AM | |
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Well, proving that he doesnt exist is, imo... Pointless. Religion comes forward with the claim that there is a god - religion has to prove that there is. So long as it doesnt, we can consider god as non-existent. If we are going to play the "prove that isnt so game", then we can all think of tons of outrageous stuff that cant be proven, but cant even be properly disproven. I think that it was Dawkins who came up with the idea of the "flying spaghetti monster". Lets say that I claim that god is a flying spaghetti monster - prove that he isnt. I can claim that a giant chicken laid an egg, and that became the Earth. Prove that isnt so. If I really believe it, you wont be able to convince me that it isnt so, neither will I be ever capable of proving that it is so.
So, "prove that isnt so" logic clearly wont get us anywhere. Sorry, didnt mean to insult anyones religious feelings, the giant chicken and the spaghetti monster are there just to sort of illustrate the point.
And, so long as there are people who are not content with just being religious, but insist that we should all share their religious values, and want to make those same values into laws and constitutions, then I think that we really should know wheter they are right or wrong in their faith.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Friday, August 21, 2009 6:12:47 AM)| | | ron h wrote: | | Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
(Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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| [ron h] Friday, August 21, 2009 6:12:47 AM | |
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Hello I.M.P., I don't believe we've met, though I do enjoy reading your posts!!
HB, very interesting question!!
I think a lot along the same lines I.M.P. does, however if God exists, that doesn't neccesarily mean science could prove his existence. There are many many other physical things out there that science is aware of and still can't explain...google dark matter!!!
And even though science can't prove he exists, can they prove he doesn't?? NO!! Granted, religion is based on blind faith and not fact...but do we really have to have all the answers?? I don't want to know half the stuff I already do know lol
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by I.M.P. from Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM)
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I.M.P. wrote: |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
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Head banger wrote: |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict?
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Edited at: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:15:09 AM |
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| [I.M.P.] Friday, August 21, 2009 1:53:57 AM | |
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In the quest for knowledge and fact, toes are bound to be stepped on. Especially the toes of those who hold onto beliefs not based in fact...
Science and religion are in conflict so long as religion stands in the way of science. The fact that there are religious scientists points to the fact that they are not necessarily in conflict.
If there were a scientific way to prove God existed, I'm sure scientists would discover it, publish the findings for all to see, and celebrate. The main goal in science is to establish fact.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:15:34 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | are religion and science nesesarily in conflict? |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, August 20, 2009 4:42:02 PM | |
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Depends on the religion, I guess. Or, how much are the believers prepared to trust science.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:15:34 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | are religion and science nesesarily in conflict? |
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| [Head banger] Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:15:34 AM | |
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are religion and science nesesarily in conflict? |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:59:31 PM | |
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Personaly, I think that whoever built that accelerator is ultimately looking for a life...
Anyway, like I said, I dont think that the big bang theory claims that something came out of nothing. Now, I dont know what exactly it says, but if youre willing to study that Wikipedia article... Well, that is, if you have at least five years to spend, because it is all very complicated.
And yes, that is true, religion sort of began in the absense of science, but that doesnt make it true. And even if it did, which religion is the right one? There are hundreds of religions in the world.
And thats another thing that is wrong in all those "scientific" proofs of god. If those people in Switzerland really find the god particle, will that mean that they have proven that there is a god? In that case, which god? Jahwe, Allah, the Christian God? Maybe the gods of ancient Greeks, Romans or Slavs? Maybe a form of god/s not imagined or worshipped anywhere in the world?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:15:24 PM)| | | ron h wrote: | | And I guess that's always been my question...something never comes from nothing, and the BBT is what most science hangs it's collective hat on...but it's a contradiction. Back in the day when religion began, there was no science as we know it today, so civilization had to make sense of the unknown the best way it could. Even in today's science...you look at the new accelerator they've built there in Europe, what are they ultimately looking for?? The God Particle!!!
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:57:30 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Oh, and it might be worth mentioning, that all this is not always against religious teachings. The story that you were told is actualy the official view of the Catholic church towards evolution, and the Big Bang theory is, according to them, the physical appearance of Creation.
Thats the Catholics, anyway. Orthodox Christians and Protestants are more fundamentalistic in this.
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spapad wrote: |
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Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
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ron h wrote: |
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I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
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ron h wrote: |
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There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
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Head banger wrote: |
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yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
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ron h wrote: |
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That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:16:29 PM |
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| [Becks] Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:33:51 PM | |
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LMAO Guid!!! 
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:06:30 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | HALFORD CREATED THE LUMP! AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [ron h] Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:15:24 PM | |
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And I guess that's always been my question...something never comes from nothing, and the BBT is what most science hangs it's collective hat on...but it's a contradiction. Back in the day when religion began, there was no science as we know it today, so civilization had to make sense of the unknown the best way it could. Even in today's science...you look at the new accelerator they've built there in Europe, what are they ultimately looking for?? The God Particle!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:57:30 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Oh, and it might be worth mentioning, that all this is not always against religious teachings. The story that you were told is actualy the official view of the Catholic church towards evolution, and the Big Bang theory is, according to them, the physical appearance of Creation.
Thats the Catholics, anyway. Orthodox Christians and Protestants are more fundamentalistic in this.
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spapad wrote: |
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Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
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ron h wrote: |
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I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
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ron h wrote: |
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There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
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Head banger wrote: |
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yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
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ron h wrote: |
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That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:16:29 PM |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:03:36 PM | |
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thats roughly the way this debate went. everyone has their own perceptions. somethings can be proven, some cant.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Sunday, August 16, 2009 6:59:25 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | When I was a little girl I asked my mother about creation vs. evolution (a difficult child) Her answer was suprisingly interesting.
She said evolution did take place. God made the ancient creatures and when they were not what he wanted he phased them out etc.
Her ultimate answer was no one knows just how long a day is to God; could be millions of earth years, and still only took him six days.
Simple answer for a child's simple mind, back in the sixties, would have been a pretty progressive thought, especially in the bible belt. I'm not very religious to this day, but I appriciate her trying to blend the values with the science.
As for debate, you know I suck at that stuff, I'll leave it to you gentlemen. Just a passing on a memory I had. (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:53:33 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
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ron h wrote: |
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That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:07:08 PM |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:39:12 PM | |
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| That's it! Im staying out of here as I'm am just too silly to do serious. LOL |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:17:37 PM | |
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| I was refering to the fact you said the god made a Lump! LOL Wish I had a good Bevis and Butthead moment here! |
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| [guidogodoy] Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:12:15 PM | |
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Kosher? I am not Jewish. Wouldn't know. HAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:09:39 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | And what what a fine lump it was! Wether it be with black or white matting! Long may he riegn!
Hummm, something doesn't sound quite Kosher about that! LOL
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | HALFORD CREATED THE LUMP! AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:09:39 PM | |
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And what what a fine lump it was! Wether it be with black or white matting! Long may he riegn!
Hummm, something doesn't sound quite Kosher about that! LOL
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:06:30 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | HALFORD CREATED THE LUMP! AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [guidogodoy] Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:06:30 PM | |
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HALFORD CREATED THE LUMP! AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:48:12 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:04:06 PM | |
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Enough to see it in Technicolor! LOL
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:02:14 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Would that be the short, illustrated version, or the real thing?
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh, my family was Southern Baptist growing up, that is why I said it seemed like a very progressive view when my mother told me that tale. Most Baptists would hit you with a Bilble for that view! LOL
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Oh, and it might be worth mentioning, that all this is not always against religious teachings. The story that you were told is actualy the official view of the Catholic church towards evolution, and the Big Bang theory is, according to them, the physical appearance of Creation.
Thats the Catholics, anyway. Orthodox Christians and Protestants are more fundamentalistic in this.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:02:14 PM | |
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Would that be the short, illustrated version, or the real thing?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:01:02 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh, my family was Southern Baptist growing up, that is why I said it seemed like a very progressive view when my mother told me that tale. Most Baptists would hit you with a Bilble for that view! LOL
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Oh, and it might be worth mentioning, that all this is not always against religious teachings. The story that you were told is actualy the official view of the Catholic church towards evolution, and the Big Bang theory is, according to them, the physical appearance of Creation.
Thats the Catholics, anyway. Orthodox Christians and Protestants are more fundamentalistic in this.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 8:01:02 PM | |
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Oh, my family was Southern Baptist growing up, that is why I said it seemed like a very progressive view when my mother told me that tale. Most Baptists would hit you with a Bilble for that view! LOL
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:57:30 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Oh, and it might be worth mentioning, that all this is not always against religious teachings. The story that you were told is actualy the official view of the Catholic church towards evolution, and the Big Bang theory is, according to them, the physical appearance of Creation.
Thats the Catholics, anyway. Orthodox Christians and Protestants are more fundamentalistic in this.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:58:09 PM | |
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Lol... Well, that makes two of us.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:53:07 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | I'm not that smart, and would prefer to stay ambulatory for as long as possible in my lifetime! LOL
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, here it is, in all its glory...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
Honestly, I just read the synopsis in the first paragraph... If you want to go into details, I suggest getting a few college degrees, and a Stephen Hawking wheelchair.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:57:30 PM | |
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Oh, and it might be worth mentioning, that all this is not always against religious teachings. The story that you were told is actualy the official view of the Catholic church towards evolution, and the Big Bang theory is, according to them, the physical appearance of Creation.
Thats the Catholics, anyway. Orthodox Christians and Protestants are more fundamentalistic in this.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:48:12 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:53:07 PM | |
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I'm not that smart, and would prefer to stay ambulatory for as long as possible in my lifetime! LOL
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:51:09 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, here it is, in all its glory...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
Honestly, I just read the synopsis in the first paragraph... If you want to go into details, I suggest getting a few college degrees, and a Stephen Hawking wheelchair.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:51:09 PM | |
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Well, here it is, in all its glory...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
Honestly, I just read the synopsis in the first paragraph... If you want to go into details, I suggest getting a few college degrees, and a Stephen Hawking wheelchair.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:48:12 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:48:12 PM | |
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Oh crap, gonna open my mouth again! What created the lump that exploded Strat?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:41:41 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:41:41 PM | |
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Well, I dont know that much about that theory, but from what I know, it doesnt say that it started from nothing. It says that the universe expanded from a sort of a primordial... "lump". Or something like that. Basicly, that it is all a procces of continous expanding that still goes on. If I got it right, anyway.
But, if we turn to religion... There is always the question of where did god come from?
And I think that wheter or not a certain theory is true or not is not that important, what I think matters most is the approach. The scientific theories are imo serious attempts to explain something. They give us something to build on, they can be adapted or changed to suit new evidence and new facts that come along, or transformed completely, if the facts speak completely against them. Whereas religion only says what happened, and no debate. The bible just says that god created the havens and the earth, period. God created this, did that, said that. Why? Well, thats the big question, I guess.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:30:39 PM)| | | ron h wrote: | | I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [ron h] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:30:39 PM | |
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I understand that the concept of blind faith is a tough pill to swallow...more so in this day and age. My issue has always been the Big Bang Theory...if there was nothing...where did the B A N G come from??
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:16:04 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:22:58 PM | |
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I used to go to church all the time when I was a child but then I got sick. So sick I could not go to school nor church, and I really just never liked going back to church after that. I'm an agnostic. I only question the belief in the Bible/afterlife. I would love to believe there is some power in the universe that forms all into existance. I just think the Bible is a great novel, but not reality. There is much history in it that can be proven, but no one can prove the existance of a diety from that book. I have read the Bible, most of it. The old testament shows an angry and vengefull God only Abraham seems to be able to reason around to humanity. The early God is almost savage! Strange how things progressed but did not at the same time. God offered "his only son" for sacrifice for the good of mankind, and that was always planned to happen wether or not Jesus had grown to love his fellow mankind. But, I guess Had Jesus not found us worthy, living amoungt us, he would have died, and the world would have ended. If you follow the logic of the Bible.
My last post on this matter.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:09:31 PM)| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:16:04 PM | |
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Lol... We used to have a lot of that here. If I remember right, we even had a thread dedicated to religion, that got sacked because we were to out of hand...
Anyway, Im an atheist, as are both my parents... Ive had a secular upringing, no sunday schools, I wasnt even baptised... And I guess it stuck with me, although I think religion is interesting, thats why Ive read the bible, even tho I never attended a service in my life.
As for Creationism vs. Evolution, I buy into evolution, pretty much just because it makes sense to me.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:09:31 PM)| | | ron h wrote: | | There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [ron h] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:09:31 PM | |
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There is a group out there of Scientists who feel as you've mentioned that there's room for both...God and Science. I thought that was odd in that science is based in fact where the other...
I have an Athiest friend who I've had many discussions with about this very topic, as I was raised in a family that went to Church every Sunday...he would get so frustrated because even though I could never prove God existed, he couldn't prove he didn't...and that even though he doesn't believe God exists, I made him face the realization that even Athiests benefit by humanities belief in a 'Supreme Being' in their everyday lives regardless of what he believes lol but he insisted I believe his side and I never would lol to this day he utters obscenities when the subject is broached
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:53:33 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [Becks] Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:05:11 PM | |
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I like that idea your mother passed on to you, Spa.
Me, I keep my views to myself mostly, I do have a certain degree of spirituality in my life, but I also have a science degree LOL!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Sunday, August 16, 2009 6:59:25 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | When I was a little girl I asked my mother about creation vs. evolution (a difficult child) Her answer was suprisingly interesting.
She said evolution did take place. God made the ancient creatures and when they were not what he wanted he phased them out etc.
Her ultimate answer was no one knows just how long a day is to God; could be millions of earth years, and still only took him six days.
Simple answer for a child's simple mind, back in the sixties, would have been a pretty progressive thought, especially in the bible belt. I'm not very religious to this day, but I appriciate her trying to blend the values with the science.
As for debate, you know I suck at that stuff, I'll leave it to your gentlemen. Just a passing on a memory I had.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [spapad] Sunday, August 16, 2009 6:59:25 PM | |
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When I was a little girl I asked my mother about creation vs. evolution (a difficult child) Her answer was suprisingly interesting.
She said evolution did take place. God made the ancient creatures and when they were not what he wanted he phased them out etc.
Her ultimate answer was no one knows just how long a day is to God; could be millions of earth years, and still only took him six days.
Simple answer for a child's simple mind, back in the sixties, would have been a pretty progressive thought, especially in the bible belt. I'm not very religious to this day, but I appriciate her trying to blend the values with the science.
As for debate, you know I suck at that stuff, I'll leave it to you gentlemen. Just a passing on a memory I had. [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:53:33 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
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ron h wrote: |
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That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:07:08 PM |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:53:33 PM | |
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yeah, because I said so, thats a great argument. so is everyone knows its so. first off, iv everyone did, there would be no argument. second everyone could be wrong. hundreds of years ago everyone thoght the earth was flat. turns out they might have been wrong. the popular belief is not always right.
I read an interesting debate on creationism vs evolution a while back. must see if I can find it. people get so absolutly certain of one idea or another, they cant even conceive of a way that both ideas could be right.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:19:10 PM)| | | ron h wrote: | | That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [ron h] Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:19:10 PM | |
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That's pretty much my point, HB. If a person is going to give an opinion and debate it, they also have a responsibility to substantiate it...not necessarily to prove themselves right or superior or what ever...but to give me that information so that I may logically respond to it...and likewise. Too often an opinion ends with "well, that's how I feel", "so", "I don't care", "what do you know?", "because I said so"...and the like. Where's the give and take?
As far as theory vs. fact...Evoloution vs. Creationism...Big Bang vs. God...These are great example of that...ppl have died because of their views on this...how can either be proven??
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
Edited at: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:20:27 PM |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:31:38 PM | |
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damn double posts. sigh. its not important enough to see twice.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM | |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:30:51 PM | |
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the thing that made me think of that post first was seeing the debate on healthcare from the states. its funny, you see both sides calling the other hitler...
here, lately we mostly do have civilized discussions, it wasnt always that way, but it is now. It is hard to understand where others are coming from, but without knowing that how can anything they say mean anything?
BTW, the seek first to understand then to be understood comes from steven covey, think its part of the 7 habits. |
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| [I.M.P.] Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:33:27 PM | |
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That is a good point ron h. Goes well with that quote HB used, "Seek to understand, and then to be understood."
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:44:24 PM)| | | ron h wrote: | | I will add that it's sometimes hard to understand anothers' opinion when I can't understand how they came to it. A lot of times ppl express an opinion that has no foundation or basis of fact, or even an experience with which to compare it to. Let's say I don't agree with Strat on Western global policy, how am I to understand (or respect) his point of view if I've never had to walk in his shoes? So, he would need to explain to me how he came to that point of view, what facts support or relate to me something he went through himself. It happens way too often that opinions are given when the one who gives it can't substantiate it...if they even know what they're talking about. That above all else really gets to me and I admit...get's extremely frustrating...especially if I can substantiate mine. That was just example Strat, nothing more!! 
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good to see you back.
Well, Id say that its because we all have our opinions that we value a lot... And especialy in this thread those opinions touch things like patriotism, religion, ethnic backgrounds etc. Which are usualy very personal, and its easy to get into a situation where someones opinion insults someone else.
I dont know... I usualy try not to be insulting, especialy towards regular members, although I guess I have slipped from time to time. Anyway, if I have an opinion on something I will say it, and I have been attacked for it before. Anthing from my critic of religion, opposing ethnic and national pride, opposing the Western global policy... And I guess some of my responses could be considered attacks as well. IDK. I think that above all we should keep in mind that just because someone says something we dont like, its not because that person wants to attack us or hurt us, but because that person really does think that way.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Time for a rant.
Why can’t people in today environment have a civilized discussion? Not just on the boards here, but in general. So many things we discuss these days create anger and harsh words. What does that accomplish? Any issue that has any importance soon results in people calling names, yelling, and not understanding. Try discussing abortion, global warming, taxes, health care, global trade, evolution, etc. People have a hard and fast opinion and they stick to it. They seek to convince the other side that they are wrong. Do they get anywhere? Hell no. The motto “Seek first to understand then to be understood” seems lost these days. Never let facts get in the way of what you know.
While I am ranting, when did people start confusing a scientific theory with fact? A fact is something that is proven, with no doubt. A theory may be widely accepted, debated or whatever, but it’s not a fact. Global warming, evolution, relativity are all theory’s that will most likely never be proven. Then you here people using computer models or forecasts to prove something. A computer model is a forecast. It is only proof that someone can write a program. The other day the weather forecast before I left for work was 0%, yet on the way to work it was raining. Think about it, that’s a 2 hour time gap, and the forecast was wrong. That forecast uses computer models, forecasters with years of experience, yet is wrong. No model or forecast is proof of anything.
Ok, rant over. Be respectful, not close-minded, remember the difference between fact and theory, and for Pete's sake a forecast is not proof. Now… Everyone go back to arguing or sleeping, whichever. |
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| [I.M.P.] Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:30:16 PM | |
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You know, after reading that post in Blah you put up a few days ago, I was thinking it'd have been a good candidate for the Social Issues thread-and here you are, hehe.
And hey, HB, don't we have civilized discussions in here? LOL. I know what you mean though man. It's a weird world. I think partially it's the times we live, and the technology we have. This is a stressed world we live in, and sticking to an opinion is sometimes a "crutch" if you will. My opinion on that, lol. Obama said it was guns and religion, well... Anyway, I notice the ones that are doing the least bickering and yapping are the ones doing the DOING that needs done. Just my experience there with the world.
Yeah, technology has a way of making things fast, easy, and convenient, and sometimes extremely accurate, however, it is only as good as we make it and use it. Technology still requires the human brain to function.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:44:09 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | Time for a rant.
Why can’t people in today environment have a civilized discussion? Not just on the boards here, but in general. So many things we discuss these days create anger and harsh words. What does that accomplish? Any issue that has any importance soon results in people calling names, yelling, and not understanding. Try discussing abortion, global warming, taxes, health care, global trade, evolution, etc. People have a hard and fast opinion and they stick to it. They seek to convince the other side that they are wrong. Do they get anywhere? Hell no. The motto “Seek first to understand then to be understood” seems lost these days. Never let facts get in the way of what you know.
While I am ranting, when did people start confusing a scientific theory with fact? A fact is something that is proven, with no doubt. A theory may be widely accepted, debated or whatever, but it’s not a fact. Global warming, evolution, relativity are all theory’s that will most likely never be proven. Then you here people using computer models or forecasts to prove something. A computer model is a forecast. It is only proof that someone can write a program. The other day the weather forecast before I left for work was 0%, yet on the way to work it was raining. Think about it, that’s a 2 hour time gap, and the forecast was wrong. That forecast uses computer models, forecasters with years of experience, yet is wrong. No model or forecast is proof of anything.
Ok, rant over. Be respectful, not close-minded, remember the difference between fact and theory, and for Pete's sake a forecast is not proof. Now… Everyone go back to arguing or sleeping, whichever. |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:21:08 PM | |
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Well, I agree with that. Theres another thing here, when we take into consideration that we are from different parts of the world. We all have stereotypes. In my country, or I think even in Europe in general, the prevailing stereotype about Americans is that you are all just fat, dumb, TV addicts. Or, we know better, but thats the sort of an image that most of us will get when thinking about America. And Im sure that you have plenty of stereotypes about us. We all know that the stereotype isnt true, but its still there somewhere, and its sometimes hard to ignore it.
That, and since you mention the Western global policy (which is a good example, since it always generates the most heated debates), I guess I would have to take into consideration that most of the people here are Americans. From a country which is a major player (probably the biggest) in these policies, and I come from a country that has only recently joined up, and even that on a very small scale. Since American foreign policy is very much tied to patriotism towards America, I guess that I have to take into consideration that Im talking to people that are biased, whereas I dont feel any loyalty to the US (being that Im not American), and never have to answer for my countries actions in the global field.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ron h from Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:44:24 PM)| | | ron h wrote: | | I will add that it's sometimes hard to understand anothers' opinion when I can't understand how they came to it. A lot of times ppl express an opinion that has no foundation or basis of fact, or even an experience with which to compare it to. Let's say I don't agree with Strat on Western global policy, how am I to understand (or respect) his point of view if I've never had to walk in his shoes? So, he would need to explain to me how he came to that point of view, what facts support or relate to me something he went through himself. It happens way too often that opinions are given when the one who gives it can't substantiate it...if they even know what they're talking about. That above all else really gets to me and I admit...get's extremely frustrating...especially if I can substantiate mine. That was just example Strat, nothing more!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good to see you back.
Well, Id say that its because we all have our opinions that we value a lot... And especialy in this thread those opinions touch things like patriotism, religion, ethnic backgrounds etc. Which are usualy very personal, and its easy to get into a situation where someones opinion insults someone else.
I dont know... I usualy try not to be insulting, especialy towards regular members, although I guess I have slipped from time to time. Anyway, if I have an opinion on something I will say it, and I have been attacked for it before. Anthing from my critic of religion, opposing ethnic and national pride, opposing the Western global policy... And I guess some of my responses could be considered attacks as well. IDK. I think that above all we should keep in mind that just because someone says something we dont like, its not because that person wants to attack us or hurt us, but because that person really does think that way.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Time for a rant.
Why can’t people in today environment have a civilized discussion? Not just on the boards here, but in general. So many things we discuss these days create anger and harsh words. What does that accomplish? Any issue that has any importance soon results in people calling names, yelling, and not understanding. Try discussing abortion, global warming, taxes, health care, global trade, evolution, etc. People have a hard and fast opinion and they stick to it. They seek to convince the other side that they are wrong. Do they get anywhere? Hell no. The motto “Seek first to understand then to be understood” seems lost these days. Never let facts get in the way of what you know.
While I am ranting, when did people start confusing a scientific theory with fact? A fact is something that is proven, with no doubt. A theory may be widely accepted, debated or whatever, but it’s not a fact. Global warming, evolution, relativity are all theory’s that will most likely never be proven. Then you here people using computer models or forecasts to prove something. A computer model is a forecast. It is only proof that someone can write a program. The other day the weather forecast before I left for work was 0%, yet on the way to work it was raining. Think about it, that’s a 2 hour time gap, and the forecast was wrong. That forecast uses computer models, forecasters with years of experience, yet is wrong. No model or forecast is proof of anything.
Ok, rant over. Be respectful, not close-minded, remember the difference between fact and theory, and for Pete's sake a forecast is not proof. Now… Everyone go back to arguing or sleeping, whichever. |
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| [ron h] Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:44:24 PM | |
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I will add that it's sometimes hard to understand anothers' opinion when I can't understand how they came to it. A lot of times ppl express an opinion that has no foundation or basis of fact, or even an experience with which to compare it to. Let's say I don't agree with Strat on Western global policy, how am I to understand (or respect) his point of view if I've never had to walk in his shoes? So, he would need to explain to me how he came to that point of view, what facts support or relate to me something he went through himself. It happens way too often that opinions are given when the one who gives it can't substantiate it...if they even know what they're talking about. That above all else really gets to me and I admit...get's extremely frustrating...especially if I can substantiate mine. That was just example Strat, nothing more!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:28:01 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good to see you back.
Well, Id say that its because we all have our opinions that we value a lot... And especialy in this thread those opinions touch things like patriotism, religion, ethnic backgrounds etc. Which are usualy very personal, and its easy to get into a situation where someones opinion insults someone else.
I dont know... I usualy try not to be insulting, especialy towards regular members, although I guess I have slipped from time to time. Anyway, if I have an opinion on something I will say it, and I have been attacked for it before. Anthing from my critic of religion, opposing ethnic and national pride, opposing the Western global policy... And I guess some of my responses could be considered attacks as well. IDK. I think that above all we should keep in mind that just because someone says something we dont like, its not because that person wants to attack us or hurt us, but because that person really does think that way.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Time for a rant.
Why can’t people in today environment have a civilized discussion? Not just on the boards here, but in general. So many things we discuss these days create anger and harsh words. What does that accomplish? Any issue that has any importance soon results in people calling names, yelling, and not understanding. Try discussing abortion, global warming, taxes, health care, global trade, evolution, etc. People have a hard and fast opinion and they stick to it. They seek to convince the other side that they are wrong. Do they get anywhere? Hell no. The motto “Seek first to understand then to be understood” seems lost these days. Never let facts get in the way of what you know.
While I am ranting, when did people start confusing a scientific theory with fact? A fact is something that is proven, with no doubt. A theory may be widely accepted, debated or whatever, but it’s not a fact. Global warming, evolution, relativity are all theory’s that will most likely never be proven. Then you here people using computer models or forecasts to prove something. A computer model is a forecast. It is only proof that someone can write a program. The other day the weather forecast before I left for work was 0%, yet on the way to work it was raining. Think about it, that’s a 2 hour time gap, and the forecast was wrong. That forecast uses computer models, forecasters with years of experience, yet is wrong. No model or forecast is proof of anything.
Ok, rant over. Be respectful, not close-minded, remember the difference between fact and theory, and for Pete's sake a forecast is not proof. Now… Everyone go back to arguing or sleeping, whichever. |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:28:01 AM | |
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Good to see you back.
Well, Id say that its because we all have our opinions that we value a lot... And especialy in this thread those opinions touch things like patriotism, religion, ethnic backgrounds etc. Which are usualy very personal, and its easy to get into a situation where someones opinion insults someone else.
I dont know... I usualy try not to be insulting, especialy towards regular members, although I guess I have slipped from time to time. Anyway, if I have an opinion on something I will say it, and I have been attacked for it before. Anthing from my critic of religion, opposing ethnic and national pride, opposing the Western global policy... And I guess some of my responses could be considered attacks as well. IDK. I think that above all we should keep in mind that just because someone says something we dont like, its not because that person wants to attack us or hurt us, but because that person really does think that way.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:44:09 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | Time for a rant.
Why can’t people in today environment have a civilized discussion? Not just on the boards here, but in general. So many things we discuss these days create anger and harsh words. What does that accomplish? Any issue that has any importance soon results in people calling names, yelling, and not understanding. Try discussing abortion, global warming, taxes, health care, global trade, evolution, etc. People have a hard and fast opinion and they stick to it. They seek to convince the other side that they are wrong. Do they get anywhere? Hell no. The motto “Seek first to understand then to be understood” seems lost these days. Never let facts get in the way of what you know.
While I am ranting, when did people start confusing a scientific theory with fact? A fact is something that is proven, with no doubt. A theory may be widely accepted, debated or whatever, but it’s not a fact. Global warming, evolution, relativity are all theory’s that will most likely never be proven. Then you here people using computer models or forecasts to prove something. A computer model is a forecast. It is only proof that someone can write a program. The other day the weather forecast before I left for work was 0%, yet on the way to work it was raining. Think about it, that’s a 2 hour time gap, and the forecast was wrong. That forecast uses computer models, forecasters with years of experience, yet is wrong. No model or forecast is proof of anything.
Ok, rant over. Be respectful, not close-minded, remember the difference between fact and theory, and for Pete's sake a forecast is not proof. Now… Everyone go back to arguing or sleeping, whichever. |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:44:09 AM | |
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Time for a rant.
Why can’t people in today environment have a civilized discussion? Not just on the boards here, but in general. So many things we discuss these days create anger and harsh words. What does that accomplish? Any issue that has any importance soon results in people calling names, yelling, and not understanding. Try discussing abortion, global warming, taxes, health care, global trade, evolution, etc. People have a hard and fast opinion and they stick to it. They seek to convince the other side that they are wrong. Do they get anywhere? Hell no. The motto “Seek first to understand then to be understood” seems lost these days. Never let facts get in the way of what you know.
While I am ranting, when did people start confusing a scientific theory with fact? A fact is something that is proven, with no doubt. A theory may be widely accepted, debated or whatever, but it’s not a fact. Global warming, evolution, relativity are all theory’s that will most likely never be proven. Then you here people using computer models or forecasts to prove something. A computer model is a forecast. It is only proof that someone can write a program. The other day the weather forecast before I left for work was 0%, yet on the way to work it was raining. Think about it, that’s a 2 hour time gap, and the forecast was wrong. That forecast uses computer models, forecasters with years of experience, yet is wrong. No model or forecast is proof of anything.
Ok, rant over. Be respectful, not close-minded, remember the difference between fact and theory, and for Pete's sake a forecast is not proof. Now… Everyone go back to arguing or sleeping, whichever. |
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| [BLOOD SUCKER Esquire] Monday, July 27, 2009 2:06:26 AM | |
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| Does anyone here think that the moon-landing was staged? Seems that the era that we lived in back then did not have the technical capabilities of putting a man on the moon. We're barely capable of cleaning up our present dilemnas with air travel. So to think that Nassau launched all these Apollo missions and sent 3 or 4 crews to carry out their moon walks and such is becoming more fraudulant as the years pass. I do believe in the space shuttle and space station projects. However, 7-10 day missions with limited technological savvy in 1969-1972? And here we are 40 years later, and have yet to go back? The question is, were we really there in the first place? And when is this planned mission to Mars? Rather puzzling with the 'so-called' evidence in one hand, and the conspiracy theory in the other! Thank you. (a. Hammerstein) |
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