| [Deep Freeze] Friday, December 19, 2008 9:56:04 AM | |
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Now then, having responded to that, lets turn to our friend strat;
Decent wage? Interesting enough but, again, rather vague. How does one define "decent". I am almost certain that you and I would differ there, right? Pensions? Hmm. That is a way that a company rewards a LONG TERM employee. It is a good thing, unless you are a slug that is jumping from job to job with no loyalty. Decency seems to be your theme but again I ask, how do you define the word? If your bills are paid and you can eat, is that decent? If you can take a vacation once a year or every other year , is that decent? If you make enough to go out and buy a home, is that decent? Hmm...
Earning a position. ( Please see my previous comments on Paulson) There is a reason business schools exist. The things they teach are important. Just how would you propose we define "earn"? And just where do you get the information that substantiates your "competitiion" theory? Thousands of others that want the position? Wow. I find that difficult to believe, given that the position requires certain elements that many (if not most) people simply do not possess. And "buying" the positions? How is that done? Inherit it? How? Just what criteria should be employed in determining who runs a corporation? And make NO mistake, it is not a "useless" position. Forget Corporate Structure for just a moment. Someone has to lead. Decisions (very HARD decisions) must be made. I suppose we could just go down to the assembly line and pick some guy "screwing in the tail lights" for the position? Oh yeah, VERY qualified.
Do you really think I am being naive when I say that YOU have as much opportunity as anyone else?? It is a shame that you do not think as highly of yourself as I do. You're right, not everyone can be a winner. good point. But I can tell you this, ALL "winners" believe in themselves. That's a start. It takes time, man. It does not happen overnight. Or in a year. Or in two. Hard work and dedication are only part of it. Focus and drive are others. Setting goals and all that "naive" type stuff.
As for the symbiosis analogy, I liked it. Very illustrative, although I do not completely agree. It is the economics of fundamental business. Supply and demand. In some way, we all rely on one another. We can argue the virtues of the "system" all day long but if you really think about it, you choose your life man. If tail light assembly does not strike you as a "decent" way to make a living, do something else. Getting an education is an obvious first step. But it does open doors. Then you too could be part of this mysterious "competition" to inherit a chance to purchase a job..........HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Friday, December 19, 2008 2:14:41 AM)| |  | _strat_ wrote: | | Formula... There is no "formula" that I would know of. If you ask me, all this shit with wages and pensions is bullshit. If one works a decent work, one should be able to live a decent life, end of story.
Earning the position... Good job, if such a position or such an income could actualy be earned. Which it cant be. It can be won in a competition with thousands of others who want to get to the same spot, it can be bought with connections, hell, maybe it can even be inherited over there in the States, for all I know. I fail to see any logic whatsoever in claiming that anyone can earn so much power over the lives of so many people, who cant do anything else but to comply, or get fired. And thats just the problem. That all the power, the control of a corporation, in some cases power to control entire national economies, is concentrated in the hands of the few. Now, I dont care how much they are stressed, how hard they try (even if they did try to do anything else apart from filling their bank accounts), if they fuckup, they fuckup good. Just like they did now. And responsability... Please. They should be held responsible, since they hold such a disproportionate amount of power, but they are not. Just look at whats happening now (at least it is happening here). Over the last few years, we had a wonderfull economic growth. Splendid. All the indexes were up, statistics were looking great, CEOs, politicians, managers were all smiling... And all that time, most of the working class lived in appauling conditions. The unions were staging strikes like crazy, and all they managed to get were a few cents here and there on the minimal wage. In short, when there was money, they wouldnt share it. But now, just before the reccesion, they talk about us "pulling together", working longer for less, and saving what can still be saved. They wouldnt share the good times, no. But when the shit hits the fan, they will pack their suitcases full of stolen money from the years of economic growth, and leave us with the debts that they created in the first place.
Then the opportunity bit... You dont actualy think that they are growing and expanding their businesses out of solidarity with us? That we would get new jobs? Theyre doing it for themselves, and thats it. You think that I would be given an opportunity to get the job I have now, if the company wouldnt be sure that they would be making more money off me than they spend on me? And, of course, do you think that the big fish would let us near their positions, just to give us the opportunity to succed? Thats just plain naive. There is opportunity, sure. But not everyone can be a winner. Basic logic: if there are 5 different people competing for 1 job, 1 of them gets it, the others dont, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone can succed in this system. Infact, only a few can.
Oh, and the equipment part... They wouldnt have food on the table, if there were no people that would buy and use their products. That is called a symbiosis. However, I still stand by the position that the CEOs are parasites.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Friday, December 19, 2008 9:48:37 AM | |
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I dont think, without re-reading everything here, that anyone is saying you shouldnt be qualified to be a CEO. I think you are painting a much tougher picture of what they have to go thru on a daily basis. They have staff and anaylist and a schmoe for this and a schmoe for that. They cannot run an entire company day to day, especially the size of some of these. They make decision based on the info presented to them and have to answer for those decisions...
You cannot tell me, Freeze that a 68 million dollar bonus, when your company is going down the tubes is a wise business move. Its wasnt just GS either. It was all of them. The issue here is GROSS EXCESS within a corp, namely the top brass.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Friday, December 19, 2008 9:26:39 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, so just who is Henry Paulson (Goldman Sachs CEO) ?? Just what did he "do" to get where he is??? HAA!!!!!!
Well, to begin with he has a B.A. in English from Dartmouth. (May not sound important enough, but it does help when one needs to communicate clearly) Next , he has a MASTERS degree from HARVARD BUSINESS School. He is a Phi Beta Kappa AND a Sigma Alpha Epsilon. He was Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon. He has been with Goldman Sach over THIRTY years. He actually WORKED his way up! He has held high level management positions including Head of Investment Banking AND COO. And I believe he was Secretary of Treasury for the United States. He hasn't accomplished much in his "miserable" life, now has he???
This is just ONE example of "how" one gets to the position of CEO. It is not some half-assed lottery! It is not by "luck". These men earn it with hard work and drive. Period. An unfortunate by-product of such a position is that, when he screws up, it is usually HUGE. (Regardless of if it was even HIM that did it) We see this because the population and the media are so focused on it right now, and rightfully so. But I guess he is not human and not allowed to make mistakes? Oh, and last time I checked, if you had the grades and actually DID something with your high school life, you have every bit as much of an opportunity to make Harvard as he did. The problem is that the majority of kids jack around in high school instead of working towards the future. It is always SO much easier to blame the "system" than onesself.
Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 9:31:21 AM |
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| [Deep Freeze] Friday, December 19, 2008 9:26:39 AM | |
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OK, so just who is Henry Paulson (Goldman Sachs CEO) ?? Just what did he "do" to get where he is??? HAA!!!!!!
Well, to begin with he has a B.A. in English from Dartmouth. (May not sound important enough, but it does help when one needs to communicate clearly) Next , he has a MASTERS degree from HARVARD BUSINESS School. He is a Phi Beta Kappa AND a Sigma Alpha Epsilon. He was Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon. He has been with Goldman Sach over THIRTY years. He actually WORKED his way up! He has held high level management positions including Head of Investment Banking AND COO. And I believe he was Secretary of Treasury for the United States. He hasn't accomplished much in his "miserable" life, now has he???
This is just ONE example of "how" one gets to the position of CEO. It is not some half-assed lottery! It is not by "luck". These men earn it with hard work and drive. Period. An unfortunate by-product of such a position is that, when he screws up, it is usually HUGE. (Regardless of if it was even HIM that did it) We see this because the population and the media are so focused on it right now, and rightfully so. But I guess he is not human and not allowed to make mistakes? Oh, and last time I checked, if you had the grades and actually DID something with your high school life, you have every bit as much of an opportunity to make Harvard as he did. The problem is that the majority of kids jack around in high school instead of working towards the future. It is always SO much easier to blame the "system" than onesself.
Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 9:31:21 AM |
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Friday, December 19, 2008 8:17:43 AM | |
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Its corporate law, I believe. You would have to restructure to not have a CEO. You'd have to be an LLC and appoint members. I am an LLC with members....
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Friday, December 19, 2008 7:32:15 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | He probably has a personal ass-wiper too.
And it raises a good point: if more people can be hired to do the work that (supposedly) one person (the CEO) does alone... Why bother having a CEO in the first place?
| | | METAL MELTDOWN wrote: | | The Puke from Goldman Sachs with the 68 million dollar bonus...Thats $33,138.40 per hour on a 40 hour work week!! WHERE DO I APPLY!!! I guarantee that that dude did nothing any where near close to a job that earned that kind of money. I will also bet that he WASNT woke up at 3 in the morning everyday or sat on the toilet negotiating this and that. I am in the trucking business, thats what I DO!!! He probably has a fleet of peeps to take care of that for him, ALL paid by Goldman Sachs and I am sure they all received healthy bonuses at the end of the year!!!!
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Friday, December 19, 2008 2:14:41 AM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Formula... There is no "formula" that I would know of. If you ask me, all this shit with wages and pensions is bullshit. If one works a decent work, one should be able to live a decent life, end of story.
Earning the position... Good job, if such a position or such an income could actualy be earned. Which it cant be. It can be won in a competition with thousands of others who want to get to the same spot, it can be bought with connections, hell, maybe it can even be inherited over there in the States, for all I know. I fail to see any logic whatsoever in claiming that anyone can earn so much power over the lives of so many people, who cant do anything else but to comply, or get fired. And thats just the problem. That all the power, the control of a corporation, in some cases power to control entire national economies, is concentrated in the hands of the few. Now, I dont care how much they are stressed, how hard they try (even if they did try to do anything else apart from filling their bank accounts), if they fuckup, they fuckup good. Just like they did now. And responsability... Please. They should be held responsible, since they hold such a disproportionate amount of power, but they are not. Just look at whats happening now (at least it is happening here). Over the last few years, we had a wonderfull economic growth. Splendid. All the indexes were up, statistics were looking great, CEOs, politicians, managers were all smiling... And all that time, most of the working class lived in appauling conditions. The unions were staging strikes like crazy, and all they managed to get were a few cents here and there on the minimal wage. In short, when there was money, they wouldnt share it. But now, just before the reccesion, they talk about us "pulling together", working longer for less, and saving what can still be saved. They wouldnt share the good times, no. But when the shit hits the fan, they will pack their suitcases full of stolen money from the years of economic growth, and leave us with the debts that they created in the first place.
Then the opportunity bit... You dont actualy think that they are growing and expanding their businesses out of solidarity with us? That we would get new jobs? Theyre doing it for themselves, and thats it. You think that I would be given an opportunity to get the job I have now, if the company wouldnt be sure that they would be making more money off me than they spend on me? And, of course, do you think that the big fish would let us near their positions, just to give us the opportunity to succed? Thats just plain naive. There is opportunity, sure. But not everyone can be a winner. Basic logic: if there are 5 different people competing for 1 job, 1 of them gets it, the others dont, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone can succed in this system. Infact, only a few can.
Oh, and the equipment part... They wouldnt have food on the table, if there were no people that would buy and use their products. That is called a symbiosis. However, I still stand by the position that the CEOs are parasites.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 6:21:53 AM |
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| [_strat_] Friday, December 19, 2008 7:32:15 AM | |
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He probably has a personal ass-wiper too.
And it raises a good point: if more people can be hired to do the work that (supposedly) one person (the CEO) does alone... Why bother having a CEO in the first place?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by METAL MELTDOWN from Friday, December 19, 2008 6:19:30 AM)| | | METAL MELTDOWN wrote: | | The Puke from Goldman Sachs with the 68 million dollar bonus...Thats $33,138.40 per hour on a 40 hour work week!! WHERE DO I APPLY!!! I guarantee that that dude did nothing any where near close to a job that earned that kind of money. I will also bet that he WASNT woke up at 3 in the morning everyday or sat on the toilet negotiating this and that. I am in the trucking business, thats what I DO!!! He probably has a fleet of peeps to take care of that for him, ALL paid by Goldman Sachs and I am sure they all received healthy bonuses at the end of the year!!!!
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Friday, December 19, 2008 2:14:41 AM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Formula... There is no "formula" that I would know of. If you ask me, all this shit with wages and pensions is bullshit. If one works a decent work, one should be able to live a decent life, end of story.
Earning the position... Good job, if such a position or such an income could actualy be earned. Which it cant be. It can be won in a competition with thousands of others who want to get to the same spot, it can be bought with connections, hell, maybe it can even be inherited over there in the States, for all I know. I fail to see any logic whatsoever in claiming that anyone can earn so much power over the lives of so many people, who cant do anything else but to comply, or get fired. And thats just the problem. That all the power, the control of a corporation, in some cases power to control entire national economies, is concentrated in the hands of the few. Now, I dont care how much they are stressed, how hard they try (even if they did try to do anything else apart from filling their bank accounts), if they fuckup, they fuckup good. Just like they did now. And responsability... Please. They should be held responsible, since they hold such a disproportionate amount of power, but they are not. Just look at whats happening now (at least it is happening here). Over the last few years, we had a wonderfull economic growth. Splendid. All the indexes were up, statistics were looking great, CEOs, politicians, managers were all smiling... And all that time, most of the working class lived in appauling conditions. The unions were staging strikes like crazy, and all they managed to get were a few cents here and there on the minimal wage. In short, when there was money, they wouldnt share it. But now, just before the reccesion, they talk about us "pulling together", working longer for less, and saving what can still be saved. They wouldnt share the good times, no. But when the shit hits the fan, they will pack their suitcases full of stolen money from the years of economic growth, and leave us with the debts that they created in the first place.
Then the opportunity bit... You dont actualy think that they are growing and expanding their businesses out of solidarity with us? That we would get new jobs? Theyre doing it for themselves, and thats it. You think that I would be given an opportunity to get the job I have now, if the company wouldnt be sure that they would be making more money off me than they spend on me? And, of course, do you think that the big fish would let us near their positions, just to give us the opportunity to succed? Thats just plain naive. There is opportunity, sure. But not everyone can be a winner. Basic logic: if there are 5 different people competing for 1 job, 1 of them gets it, the others dont, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone can succed in this system. Infact, only a few can.
Oh, and the equipment part... They wouldnt have food on the table, if there were no people that would buy and use their products. That is called a symbiosis. However, I still stand by the position that the CEOs are parasites.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 6:21:53 AM |
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Friday, December 19, 2008 6:19:30 AM | |
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The Puke from Goldman Sachs with the 68 million dollar bonus...Thats $33,138.40 per hour on a 40 hour work week!! WHERE DO I APPLY!!! I guarantee that that dude did nothing any where near close to a job that earned that kind of money. I will also bet that he WASNT woke up at 3 in the morning everyday or sat on the toilet negotiating this and that. I am in the trucking business, thats what I DO!!! He probably has a fleet of peeps to take care of that for him, ALL paid by Goldman Sachs and I am sure they all received healthy bonuses at the end of the year!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Friday, December 19, 2008 2:14:41 AM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Formula... There is no "formula" that I would know of. If you ask me, all this shit with wages and pensions is bullshit. If one works a decent work, one should be able to live a decent life, end of story.
Earning the position... Good job, if such a position or such an income could actualy be earned. Which it cant be. It can be won in a competition with thousands of others who want to get to the same spot, it can be bought with connections, hell, maybe it can even be inherited over there in the States, for all I know. I fail to see any logic whatsoever in claiming that anyone can earn so much power over the lives of so many people, who cant do anything else but to comply, or get fired. And thats just the problem. That all the power, the control of a corporation, in some cases power to control entire national economies, is concentrated in the hands of the few. Now, I dont care how much they are stressed, how hard they try (even if they did try to do anything else apart from filling their bank accounts), if they fuckup, they fuckup good. Just like they did now. And responsability... Please. They should be held responsible, since they hold such a disproportionate amount of power, but they are not. Just look at whats happening now (at least it is happening here). Over the last few years, we had a wonderfull economic growth. Splendid. All the indexes were up, statistics were looking great, CEOs, politicians, managers were all smiling... And all that time, most of the working class lived in appauling conditions. The unions were staging strikes like crazy, and all they managed to get were a few cents here and there on the minimal wage. In short, when there was money, they wouldnt share it. But now, just before the reccesion, they talk about us "pulling together", working longer for less, and saving what can still be saved. They wouldnt share the good times, no. But when the shit hits the fan, they will pack their suitcases full of stolen money from the years of economic growth, and leave us with the debts that they created in the first place.
Then the opportunity bit... You dont actualy think that they are growing and expanding their businesses out of solidarity with us? That we would get new jobs? Theyre doing it for themselves, and thats it. You think that I would be given an opportunity to get the job I have now, if the company wouldnt be sure that they would be making more money off me than they spend on me? And, of course, do you think that the big fish would let us near their positions, just to give us the opportunity to succed? Thats just plain naive. There is opportunity, sure. But not everyone can be a winner. Basic logic: if there are 5 different people competing for 1 job, 1 of them gets it, the others dont, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone can succed in this system. Infact, only a few can.
Oh, and the equipment part... They wouldnt have food on the table, if there were no people that would buy and use their products. That is called a symbiosis. However, I still stand by the position that the CEOs are parasites.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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Edited at: Friday, December 19, 2008 6:21:53 AM |
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| [_strat_] Friday, December 19, 2008 2:14:41 AM | |
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Formula... There is no "formula" that I would know of. If you ask me, all this shit with wages and pensions is bullshit. If one works a decent work, one should be able to live a decent life, end of story.
Earning the position... Good job, if such a position or such an income could actualy be earned. Which it cant be. It can be won in a competition with thousands of others who want to get to the same spot, it can be bought with connections, hell, maybe it can even be inherited over there in the States, for all I know. I fail to see any logic whatsoever in claiming that anyone can earn so much power over the lives of so many people, who cant do anything else but to comply, or get fired. And thats just the problem. That all the power, the control of a corporation, in some cases power to control entire national economies, is concentrated in the hands of the few. Now, I dont care how much they are stressed, how hard they try (even if they did try to do anything else apart from filling their bank accounts), if they fuckup, they fuckup good. Just like they did now. And responsability... Please. They should be held responsible, since they hold such a disproportionate amount of power, but they are not. Just look at whats happening now (at least it is happening here). Over the last few years, we had a wonderfull economic growth. Splendid. All the indexes were up, statistics were looking great, CEOs, politicians, managers were all smiling... And all that time, most of the working class lived in appauling conditions. The unions were staging strikes like crazy, and all they managed to get were a few cents here and there on the minimal wage. In short, when there was money, they wouldnt share it. But now, just before the reccesion, they talk about us "pulling together", working longer for less, and saving what can still be saved. They wouldnt share the good times, no. But when the shit hits the fan, they will pack their suitcases full of stolen money from the years of economic growth, and leave us with the debts that they created in the first place.
Then the opportunity bit... You dont actualy think that they are growing and expanding their businesses out of solidarity with us? That we would get new jobs? Theyre doing it for themselves, and thats it. You think that I would be given an opportunity to get the job I have now, if the company wouldnt be sure that they would be making more money off me than they spend on me? And, of course, do you think that the big fish would let us near their positions, just to give us the opportunity to succed? Thats just plain naive. There is opportunity, sure. But not everyone can be a winner. Basic logic: if there are 5 different people competing for 1 job, 1 of them gets it, the others dont, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone can succed in this system. Infact, only a few can.
Oh, and the equipment part... They wouldnt have food on the table, if there were no people that would buy and use their products. That is called a symbiosis. However, I still stand by the position that the CEOs are parasites.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:24:14 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [TIMBONI] Friday, December 19, 2008 12:00:50 AM | |
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Good night.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Vaillant 3.0 from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:58:50 PM)| | | Vaillant 3.0 wrote: | | Hope you two have fun at Cabo.
My time here is up for now. Time to let the niece have some fun on this laptop. Goodnight!! 
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Keep me up to speed, I've got an un-opened bottle of Silver Patron with your name on it !
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | | Timbo...we meeting up in Cabo for a tequila with Sammy or what? 30th! I am in SoCal! |
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| [Vaillant 3.0] Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:58:50 PM | |
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Hope you two have fun at Cabo.
My time here is up for now. Time to let the niece have some fun on this laptop. Goodnight!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:47:21 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Keep me up to speed, I've got an un-opened bottle of Silver Patron with your name on it !
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | | Timbo...we meeting up in Cabo for a tequila with Sammy or what? 30th! I am in SoCal! |
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| [TIMBONI] Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:47:21 PM | |
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Keep me up to speed, I've got an un-opened bottle of Silver Patron with your name on it !
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:14:15 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | | Timbo...we meeting up in Cabo for a tequila with Sammy or what? 30th! I am in SoCal! |
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| [guidogodoy] Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:36:40 PM | |
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Oh you'll know I'll take pics! Meet up with Sammy and some of the Red Rocker fire-water and it might be of a tree but you'll see pix!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Vaillant 3.0 from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:34:00 PM)| | | Vaillant 3.0 wrote: | | If you two are going to Cabo, then take some pics...and say hi to Tío Osiel for me!! 
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | | Timbo...we meeting up in Cabo for a tequila with Sammy or what? 30th! I am in SoCal! |
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| [Vaillant 3.0] Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:34:00 PM | |
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If you two are going to Cabo, then take some pics...and say hi to Tío Osiel for me!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:14:15 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | | Timbo...we meeting up in Cabo for a tequila with Sammy or what? 30th! I am in SoCal! |
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| [guidogodoy] Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:14:15 PM | |
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| Timbo...we meeting up in Cabo for a tequila with Sammy or what? 30th! I am in SoCal! |
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| [Head banger] Thursday, December 18, 2008 9:06:27 PM | |
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to justify an income, its logical to use the same formula we use to justify pricing. Scarcity
Who has the skill set to do that job?
who has the experience, education and drive.
go back to Ford, just for fun. who can run that company, probably a few hundred people. most of them run other similar companies. its a huge responsibliity. hundreds of thousands of people could well loose their jobs is (and he did) he screws up. scares the hell out of people
now, the guy screwing on the left tail light on the new focus. (ok, its mexican, but still) any one of us on this board could do it. most of us would be bored stiff, but its not that hard. a few of the jobs on the asembly line would be physicaly dificult, for a few days till we got used to it.
there are those who would hate a physicaly demanding job, those who would hate to work at a desk, those who love responsibility, and those who fear it.
your experince, skills, drive and education determine your value, which determines your wage.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:24:14 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [Head banger] Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:47:45 PM | |
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what about the fuckheads who put a bottle with a marble in it, inside the door or Quarter when they are asembling the car. even if you proved it the union wouldnt let you fire them. Unions used to have their place, now they are just there to ensure mediocrety. if mediocre is your goal, a union may help you get there, but god forbid you want to be great, or even good.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by METAL MELTDOWN from Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:33:12 PM)| | | METAL MELTDOWN wrote: | | UNION UNION UNION....HERES A STORY OR 2 FOR YA......
Years ago when I drove trucks, one of the jobs I had to do for my company was to babysit the GM engine line. I would witness, every time I went in EXCESS on the clock. There would be people sitting on their asses in a break area that would be sittin in the same spot hours later. I have seen people who were supposed to be working who were sleeping. I had to wake a guy up one time and he actually got pissed that I woke him up and he WAS on the clock.
I overheard 2 employees there talking about who the hightest paid person on that plant was. You would think it was the general Manager or someone else in authority. NO, it was a fucking tool room attendant!! He made, I cant remember the exact figure, but it was well in excess of 100K. How did he do it??? By going in and sitting on his ass and extra 20 or 30 hours a week collecting over time because the goddamned UAW said he could do it!!!!!
The smartest thing Delphi ever did was to restructure and shit can the UAW here in western NY. Those guys that are in there now are still making a damn good living in there and it is saying Delphi millions of dollars....
The UAW is half the reason you paid 30 thousand for the 15 thousand dollar car you bought......
Can you tell I am anti-union!!!! (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:15:02 PM)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Oh, you KNOW MM is right. Finance plays all sorts of games to show a profit by "mergers" and "acquisitions" of failing businesses (false profit...heh....) and most have a guaranteed bonus written right into their contracts. Signing bonus along the lines of Pro sports athletes (and I STILL want to be an NBA star...I have DRIVE, man!). I could cite a hundred examples from the tech industry. CEOs that were given insane amounts of money with absolutely NO audits / checks of any kind. As long as they were in the black by the end of the fiscal year was it. Fantasy "black" as it turned out but that is what has helped lead this country to the mess it is in right now in the first place, IMO.
Sorry, this Detroit kid knows too many that will be shut out of work with the Chrysler shutdown and GM / Ford isn't doing much better as per my friends who actually work the line. UNIONS hurt them big-time as it pushes industry to Mexico (thank you NAFTA) to produce most of an auto, rush it across the border, put a steering wheel on it and call it "American." That Union message is a pretty constant message from my friends. However, the upper-admin isn't doing much to help. Especially when you are dealing with freezing cold temps in MI and heating prices going through the roof. Very sad. Edited at: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:24:03 PM |
Edited at: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:34:26 PM |
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| [Deep Freeze] Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:31:10 PM | |
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Well ( I am not ignoring your baby brain report MM) I completely agree regarding unions. Simply a vehicle for lazy good-for-nothings to retain employment. And talk about over paid!! YIKES!! I like what jimmy said earlier about successful business leaders, try to emulate them not disparage them. Good advice, I think.
Look, I am not condoning bad business. I am not supporting those that would commit malfeasence. I am only trying to come at it all from a different angle. There is too much greed in the business world, you're right MM. But there are also many, many hard working, deserving managers and leaders that do FAR more than collect big bonuses! Far more.
Edited at: Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:35:17 PM |
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:02:59 PM | |
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| [jimmyjames] Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:46:30 PM | |
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Those are the ones i was meaning. Not the trust fund babies. I hate them too.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:39:08 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | I would concede that point were you speaking of the "bootstrappers." The ones who had the drive to create something out of nothing. The Mozilla / Yahoo group.
However, I grew up in the Detroit suburbs and know all too well that it is all about dynasty. I did construction on MULTIPLE ford mansions (I am speaking of great grandkids here). OLD money. What did they do to deserve such an advantage? Well, they were born. Ford, Bush, Fischer. ALL came from old money. I appreciate the great grandfather who might have built an empire but I despise trust-fund babies. Paris Hilton...look at what a huge industry SHE actually runs! Perfumes, clothing lines, (arg) TV. Sadly, SHE is an industry. Should I try to learn from her? Sorry, I don't want to emulate her nor any other of the hundred of "dynasty" family kids I knew who were born with silver spoons in their mouths.
I respect Bill Gates / Steve Jobs more. Bill, especially. Despite his sucky OS, he is one who really gives back to society in donations. Most of which fly right under the radar as he doesn't want his name associated with magnanimous deeds.
| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | | In my opinion if someone is making millions of dollars a year in salary or bonuses they've done something to deserve it. Instead of criticizing these people for their mistakes why not learn from them and try to emulate their success. |
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:45:47 PM | |
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There is NOTHING wrong with making million of dollars a year. There is something extremely PERVERSE about making that kind of money while your company go's to hell and then asking the government for a hand out and THEN asking for a big fat bonus after said handout!!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by jimmyjames from Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:09:21 PM)| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | | In my opinion if someone is making millions of dollars a year in salary or bonuses they've done something to deserve it. Instead of criticizing these people for their mistakes why not learn from them and try to emulate their success. |
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| [guidogodoy] Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:39:08 PM | |
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I would concede that point were you speaking of the "bootstrappers." The ones who had the drive to create something out of nothing. The Mozilla / Yahoo group.
However, I grew up in the Detroit suburbs and know all too well that it is all about dynasty. I did construction on MULTIPLE ford mansions (I am speaking of great grandkids here). OLD money. What did they do to deserve such an advantage? Well, they were born. Ford, Bush, Fischer. ALL came from old money. I appreciate the great grandfather who might have built an empire but I despise trust-fund babies. Paris Hilton...look at what a huge industry SHE actually runs! Perfumes, clothing lines, (arg) TV. Sadly, SHE is an industry. Should I try to learn from her? Sorry, I don't want to emulate her nor any other of the hundred of "dynasty" family kids I knew who were born with silver spoons in their mouths.
I respect Bill Gates / Steve Jobs more. Bill, especially. Despite his sucky OS, he is one who really gives back to society in donations. Most of which fly right under the radar as he doesn't want his name associated with magnanimous deeds.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by jimmyjames from Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:09:21 PM)| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | | In my opinion if someone is making millions of dollars a year in salary or bonuses they've done something to deserve it. Instead of criticizing these people for their mistakes why not learn from them and try to emulate their success. |
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:33:12 PM | |
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UNION UNION UNION....HERES A STORY OR 2 FOR YA......
Years ago when I drove trucks, one of the jobs I had to do for my company was to babysit the GM engine line. I would witness, every time I went in EXCESS on the clock. There would be people sitting on their asses in a break area that would be sittin in the same spot hours later. I have seen people who were supposed to be working who were sleeping. I had to wake a guy up one time and he actually got pissed that I woke him up and he WAS on the clock.
I overheard 2 employees there talking about who the hightest paid person on that plant was. You would think it was the general Manager or someone else in authority. NO, it was a fucking tool room attendant!! He made, I cant remember the exact figure, but it was well in excess of 100K. How did he do it??? By going in and sitting on his ass and extra 20 or 30 hours a week collecting over time because the goddamned UAW said he could do it!!!!!
The smartest thing Delphi ever did was to restructure and shit can the UAW here in western NY. Those guys that are in there now are still making a damn good living in there and it is saying Delphi millions of dollars....
The UAW is half the reason you paid 30 thousand for the 15 thousand dollar car you bought......
Can you tell I am anti-union!!!! [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:15:02 PM)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Oh, you KNOW MM is right. Finance plays all sorts of games to show a profit by "mergers" and "acquisitions" of failing businesses (false profit...heh....) and most have a guaranteed bonus written right into their contracts. Signing bonus along the lines of Pro sports athletes (and I STILL want to be an NBA star...I have DRIVE, man!). I could cite a hundred examples from the tech industry. CEOs that were given insane amounts of money with absolutely NO audits / checks of any kind. As long as they were in the black by the end of the fiscal year was it. Fantasy "black" as it turned out but that is what has helped lead this country to the mess it is in right now in the first place, IMO.
Sorry, this Detroit kid knows too many that will be shut out of work with the Chrysler shutdown and GM / Ford isn't doing much better as per my friends who actually work the line. UNIONS hurt them big-time as it pushes industry to Mexico (thank you NAFTA) to produce most of an auto, rush it across the border, put a steering wheel on it and call it "American." That Union message is a pretty constant message from my friends. However, the upper-admin isn't doing much to help. Especially when you are dealing with freezing cold temps in MI and heating prices going through the roof. Very sad. Edited at: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:24:03 PM |
Edited at: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:34:26 PM |
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:24:34 PM | |
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Its unfortunate that the bad ones in the news are at the helm of this country going in the shitter right now. It greed Mike, GREED. The people on wall street and in Detroit are NOT the only ones. They are the ones who got caught! I am sure we will hear about more to come. One thing about a recession is that it will weed out the weak and fucked up in business and I am sure we will start hearing about CEO's from other industry who is taking a back seat to wall street and detroit in the media right now........
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:51:47 PM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | I understand, MM. I really do. If you want, we can do it mathematically. Divide the number of CEOs and Upper management personnel by the number of "bad" ones in the "news". But I do understand what you are saying.
| | | METAL MELTDOWN wrote: | | From an article in the NY Times..........
For Dow Kim, 2006 was a very good year. While his salary at Merrill Lynch was $350,000, his total compensation was 100 times that — $35 million.
The difference between the two amounts was his bonus, a rich reward for the robust earnings made by the traders he oversaw in Merrill’s mortgage business.
Mr. Kim’s colleagues, not only at his level, but far down the ranks, also pocketed large paychecks. In all, Merrill handed out $5 billion to $6 billion in bonuses that year. A 20-something analyst with a base salary of $130,000 collected a bonus of $250,000. And a 30-something trader with a $180,000 salary got $5 million.
Those are not even CEO'S....
This is from a dec 07 CNN article......
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Goldman Sachs Chairman and CEO Lloyd Blankfein will take home nearly $68 million in restricted stock, options and cash, making it the largest bonus ever given to a Wall Street CEO.
Blankfein was awarded $26.8 million in cash and $41.1 million in restricted stock and stock options, according to a company filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission issued Friday.
Goldman Sachs reported a 2.2 BILLION dollar loss this year!!! Nearly 1/4 of that went to this FUCKS bonuses last year!! Not all CEO'S are pieces of shit Freeze but this clown and those that hang with him on Wall Street and those Running the Auto Industry ARE. Unfortunatly its these industries that is part of the Fucking of America right now. I wanted to toss my cookies when those clowns from the "BIG 3" all flew to DC in individual private JETS to ask congress for BAIL OUT MONEY.......
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [guidogodoy] Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:15:02 PM | |
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Oh, you KNOW MM is right. Finance plays all sorts of games to show a profit by "mergers" and "acquisitions" of failing businesses (false profit...heh....) and most have a guaranteed bonus written right into their contracts. Signing bonus along the lines of Pro sports athletes (and I STILL want to be an NBA star...I have DRIVE, man!). I could cite a hundred examples from the tech industry. CEOs that were given insane amounts of money with absolutely NO audits / checks of any kind. As long as they were in the black by the end of the fiscal year was it. Fantasy "black" as it turned out but that is what has helped lead this country to the mess it is in right now in the first place, IMO.
Sorry, this Detroit kid knows too many that will be shut out of work with the Chrysler shutdown and GM / Ford isn't doing much better as per my friends who actually work the line. UNIONS hurt them big-time as it pushes industry to Mexico (thank you NAFTA) to produce most of an auto, rush it across the border, put a steering wheel on it and call it "American." That Union message is a pretty constant message from my friends. However, the upper-admin isn't doing much to help. Especially when you are dealing with freezing cold temps in MI and heating prices going through the roof. Very sad.
Edited at: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:24:03 PM |
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| [jimmyjames] Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:09:21 PM | |
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| In my opinion if someone is making millions of dollars a year in salary or bonuses they've done something to deserve it. Instead of criticizing these people for their mistakes why not learn from them and try to emulate their success. |
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| [Deep Freeze] Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:51:47 PM | |
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I understand, MM. I really do. If you want, we can do it mathematically. Divide the number of CEOs and Upper management personnel by the number of "bad" ones in the "news". But I do understand what you are saying.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by METAL MELTDOWN from Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:32:18 PM)| | | METAL MELTDOWN wrote: | | From an article in the NY Times..........
For Dow Kim, 2006 was a very good year. While his salary at Merrill Lynch was $350,000, his total compensation was 100 times that — $35 million.
The difference between the two amounts was his bonus, a rich reward for the robust earnings made by the traders he oversaw in Merrill’s mortgage business.
Mr. Kim’s colleagues, not only at his level, but far down the ranks, also pocketed large paychecks. In all, Merrill handed out $5 billion to $6 billion in bonuses that year. A 20-something analyst with a base salary of $130,000 collected a bonus of $250,000. And a 30-something trader with a $180,000 salary got $5 million.
Those are not even CEO'S....
This is from a dec 07 CNN article......
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Goldman Sachs Chairman and CEO Lloyd Blankfein will take home nearly $68 million in restricted stock, options and cash, making it the largest bonus ever given to a Wall Street CEO.
Blankfein was awarded $26.8 million in cash and $41.1 million in restricted stock and stock options, according to a company filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission issued Friday.
Goldman Sachs reported a 2.2 BILLION dollar loss this year!!! Nearly 1/4 of that went to this FUCKS bonuses last year!! Not all CEO'S are pieces of shit Freeze but this clown and those that hang with him on Wall Street and those Running the Auto Industry ARE. Unfortunatly its these industries that is part of the Fucking of America right now. I wanted to toss my cookies when those clowns from the "BIG 3" all flew to DC in individual private JETS to ask congress for BAIL OUT MONEY.......
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:32:18 PM | |
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From an article in the NY Times..........
For Dow Kim, 2006 was a very good year. While his salary at Merrill Lynch was $350,000, his total compensation was 100 times that — $35 million.
The difference between the two amounts was his bonus, a rich reward for the robust earnings made by the traders he oversaw in Merrill’s mortgage business.
Mr. Kim’s colleagues, not only at his level, but far down the ranks, also pocketed large paychecks. In all, Merrill handed out $5 billion to $6 billion in bonuses that year. A 20-something analyst with a base salary of $130,000 collected a bonus of $250,000. And a 30-something trader with a $180,000 salary got $5 million.
Those are not even CEO'S....
This is from a dec 07 CNN article......
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Goldman Sachs Chairman and CEO Lloyd Blankfein will take home nearly $68 million in restricted stock, options and cash, making it the largest bonus ever given to a Wall Street CEO.
Blankfein was awarded $26.8 million in cash and $41.1 million in restricted stock and stock options, according to a company filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission issued Friday.
Goldman Sachs reported a 2.2 BILLION dollar loss this year!!! Nearly 1/4 of that went to this FUCKS bonuses last year!! Not all CEO'S are pieces of shit Freeze but this clown and those that hang with him on Wall Street and those Running the Auto Industry ARE. Unfortunatly its these industries that is part of the Fucking of America right now. I wanted to toss my cookies when those clowns from the "BIG 3" all flew to DC in individual private JETS to ask congress for BAIL OUT MONEY.......
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:24:14 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [Vaillant 3.0] Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:19:03 PM | |
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Such a shame, too. You could have been famous. 
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:09:31 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Hey, I don't know about all that there stuff but all I know is that I have great drive to become an NBA center.
Bastards won't even give me a CHANCE! Talk about "the Man" keeping the little guy down!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [guidogodoy] Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:09:31 PM | |
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Hey, I don't know about all that there stuff but all I know is that I have great drive to become an NBA center.
Bastards won't even give me a CHANCE! Talk about "the Man" keeping the little guy down!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:24:14 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [Deep Freeze] Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:24:14 AM | |
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OK, let's address the comments.
First; just how do you propose we "justify" an income? What formula do you feel is "fair" and , if so, why is that fairer than earning the position or whatever system we have now? What makes their income so terrible? Because it is greater than ours?? Is that it? Is that all?
Next; you claim that it is "us" who "put food on their tables". Really? Can the same be said for the person that manufactures the items YOU use on the job? I mean, without them, YOU would not have food on the table, correct? Now, by this logic, YOU are the "elite", no?
Next; we so often hear about all the "bad" things CEOs do. They make countless decisions that affect thousands of lives and, when one or two of them go bad, we are so quick to condemn that whole. Amazing. In most cases, it IS because of these people and their ability that we, the common man, are given the opportunity to succeed. As for education, it is out there for everyone. (At least in the US) NOT every single CEO is a Harvard Business grad. Are there privileged? Certainly. In every country, in all social systems, there are the few. Does not mean that YOU strat could not run a corporation if you so desired. The question then becomes, are you motivated? Do you have ambition? I scoff when I see people going on about how the "little guy" is so abused by the system. Whatever. You can be just about anything you want to be IF you have the drive.
I do not see the Business Leaders of the world as "parasites" They are no worse than you and me. We all rely on each other and I, for one, could NOT dowhat they do. I am not qualified nor do I have that kind of drive. I like my weekends! I like my evenings.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:54:00 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:54:00 AM | |
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The issue here would be, that even if they work more, it hardly warrants such ridiculously high incomes. Incomes that are made by the entire company, not just that one person that carries his laptop to the toilet.
MM has a valid point. The wages of the beourgeois are really just the tip of the iceberg. With all the incomes that they get, they could have retired at 35 or even before that, and would be much better of than the rest of us, who will have to work until we are old and gray, and get a pension that will barely sustain us.
Than there is the issue of responsability. Yes, they get a lot of shit. BUT they do a lot of shit themselves. As I mentioned earlier, their fuckups are much more serious than ours, and affect all of us. But with the current legislature in most countries, a CEO or a manager that screws something up, will like as not get away with it. And of course their decisions. Outsourcing is a great example. Is outsourcing the jobs somewhere else responsible to the workers that are being outsourced? Yet it is done more and more.
The thing is, that if a bourgeois works 24/7, I dont really care about it. The rest of us still put bread on his table, not the other way around. Even if a person works non-stop all his/her waking hours, its still just one person. Can he/she do more than thousands of others that also provide income for the company, and get a considerably smaller piece of it? Thats impossible.
These people may be visionaries, planners, and whatnot, but the problem is that they are the elite that get to fulfill their visions and dreams. The rest of us cant, because the game forces us to fulfill theirs.
And thats another point: all of us cannot be CEOs and managers. Bourgeoisie is by definition a minority social class. All of us cannot afford the education to get there, all of us wont get the sam opportunities to be at the right plave at the right time, and all of us dont have connections to the elite that would get us there.
All that said... They are parasites. We can do without them. Infact, we were doing quite well without them for decades until the privatisation.
Oh, and mybe we should continue this in the Social issues thread? Just a thought.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:29:08 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [BLOOD SUCKER Esquire] Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:44:00 AM | |
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| There is no free lunch. Work and eat. Or stay home and starve. You can have anything you want, but just don't take it from me. "In The Jungle....."
a. Hammerstein |
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| [Necroticist] Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:51:10 AM | |
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| ..am outta my depth here....u seem to know wtf u on about....i'll go back to getting divorced....laterz.. |
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| [METAL MELTDOWN] Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:44:26 AM | |
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What they DONT deserve is millions in bonuses when their companies are facing bankruptcy or financial crises OR HAVE RECIEVED A FEDERAL BAILOUT. I have MAJOR issue with that practice. Recently big bonuses were asked from CEO's of companies that just recieved a BAILOUT!! They need to BE SLAPPED IN THE FACE. Thats MY money going to bonuses and I DO have a problem with that.
And yes there are CEO's that are GROSSLY overpaid. There are plenty of people who have to answer for this and that in a company and plenty of people who sit on the toilet making calls and solving problems that only make a tiny fraction of what they do.... [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:29:08 AM)
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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Edited at: Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:45:03 AM |
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| [Deep Freeze] Thursday, December 18, 2008 8:29:08 AM | |
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Very well. I look forward to your response!
It has become all the rage, (at least in the US), to complain about corporate CEO's and their ilk. It amazes me. Really. I noticed the comment about "working two or three hours" and had to laugh. Of course, I also noticed the equal pay for equal hours bit. *ugh*
To begin with, the CEO of any large corporation is not some guy that has randomly landed the position. He is not some "lucky stiff" that hit the lottery and managed to get the top spot by sheer accident. In order to even get to the level of CEO in a large corporation, one must have a certain level of education, training, experience and a proven track record in management. In short, they earn it. A CEO does not start his day at nine in the morning and quit at noon! The average, yes average CEO, works on a 24 hour basis. Of course, he does sleep, although I cannot imagine how, but business at that level never stops. CEO's work even when they are home. Even when they are sitting on the can!!! I am not making this up. They are on the phone or on a plane or in a car or in a meetings or doing something ALL day and into the night, everyday, including weekends! And let's not even get into the issue of dealing with CONSTANT problems and issues; personnel problems, breakdowns, economic problems, law changes, shareholders..! To suggest that they should be paid for equal hours is just silly. No company could afford it!!
The average working man only sees a brief moment in the life of a CEO, usually when that guy is dealing with some catastrophe. Or when he is leaving his high-stress positon and is (rightfully) getting a large pay-out to leave. These men are TEN cuts above the average guy. They are visionaries, planners, thinkers, creators, decision makers and incredible leaders. The level of stress and amount of responsibility they deal with is beyond comprehension.
It is oh so chic to point the finger at the guy making the "big bucks". Is there abuse? Certainly. That happens at every level. But the fact is, people are paid to "screw in the tail light" and others are paid to make sure they do it. Still others are paid to order enough tail lights while still others deliver them. Somewhere, there is even a guy designing a better tail light! Business is multi-level. Without the people at the top, the people at the bottom would not get that coveted pay check at all! Is there a better way? Possibly. THAT is just ONE reason why CEO's get paid what the do. To find a better way. To create it, plan it, design it, implement it and accept its success or failure. How many average workers are even capable of that kind of accomplishment ? There are many that think they can but are not able to actually do it. Talk is cheap, as they say. Those that actually can do it rise from day-worker "up the ladder", as it were. They earn it. There's that word again. Earn. Funny how that word is rarely used when a CEO is caught in the bright lights of TV cameras while trying to explain why some guy fifty levels below him did something stupid and cost the company millions and now the CEO has to answer for it!! That's right! It is his responsibility, even though he never even met the moron.
As far as I am concerned, people just do not get it. A CEO is far more than some figurehead. They get paid (comparatively) a LOT of money and they deserve every dime. If there are people in the world that feel they could do the job better, my only comment would be to get the education and EARN the job!
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:50:23 AM | |
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Well, yeah, I squeeze a few posts here in between my assignments...
I will be only too glad to hear your take. Tho I must run now, because the shift will be over in a few mins, but I will read it and grade it when I get home.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:47:49 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I see. And quite busy too, I might add! Interesting conversation about work , income, management and whatnot. I suppose you do not want to hear MY take?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good morrow to thee, sleepy one! Some of us have been up for 8 hours already!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | Good to see such a lively crew at this hour! |
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| [Deep Freeze] Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:47:49 AM | |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I see. And quite busy too, I might add! Interesting conversation about work , income, management and whatnot. I suppose you do not want to hear MY take?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:41:15 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good morrow to thee, sleepy one! Some of us have been up for 8 hours already!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | Good to see such a lively crew at this hour! |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:41:15 AM | |
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Good morrow to thee, sleepy one! Some of us have been up for 8 hours already!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:39:17 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | Good to see such a lively crew at this hour! |
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| [Deep Freeze] Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:39:17 AM | |
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| Good to see such a lively crew at this hour! |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:25:02 AM | |
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Hi! Whats the matter?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Necroticist from Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:51:24 AM)| | | Necroticist wrote: | | | o crap!.....i made it til Thursday?? Good day ppl...as u may have gathered one fell off the wagon in style..not proud.....but there ya go... |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:08:49 AM | |
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Maybe the CEOs dont give a shit? With a wage of your average bourgeois, they can afford to screw up.
And 14 hours is a lot, BUT... Lets just put the numbers together here... I work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, about 20 days a month on an average month. Income: just under 600€/month, which is not really a bad wage - actualy its twice as high as the minimal wage, tho it depends heavily on how many hours I work. Now, lets take a CEO. IDK what kind of a wage the guy you mentioned has, but if he is a CEO, it must go into a couple of thousand € for sure. Lets say 6000€, which would make him ten times richer than me. If it was a fair distribution, then he would have to work 80 hrs a day! And 6000€ is not really a lot, when it comes to the bourgeois incomes. If they would really have to earn what they get, they wouldnt be getting anywhere near as much as they do. It would be impossible. We, on the other hand, would get a lot more, because we wouldnt be producing their excesses, we could keep a lot more for ourselves.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:49:19 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | theft is wrong. end of story. lots of people do it, in proportion to what they can get their hands on, is never right.
I recall reading an article on the top 16 most successful CEO's in the USA. the latest one to get up was up at 0600, was working his email by0601. the average working day was 14 hours. I couldnt deal with that. but I am sure the CEO of ford doesnt want to be the guy screwing on the left tailight on the asembly line forever. its a question of intelectual work vs physical. I am sure our CEO could do my job, probably beter than I could, but I am sure that I would screw up his job, not that I want it. being the guy who if I screwed up costs 90,000 people their jobs, not for me.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Many long time employees have experience and skills too, but dont get payed well. Its basicly trying to value in money something that cannot be valued in money. I dont know why leadership and bussines abilities should be worth so much more than others, when it comes to incomes, at least. I dont know exactly what type of a job you do, but I can say that the CEO of my company (I dont even know who he is, some Swiss guy probably) wouldnt know how to do my work, and Im pretty damn sure that he wouldnt want it. And thats just one side of it. What about the bussinesmen that abuse their positions and steal companies property? And Im not refering to some office equipment that I might or might have not nicked a couple of days ago. Their corruption goes in billions.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I agree, its not a privelege, but it does in a way define you. you get known as the guy who works at ___, the guy who cant hold a job, the guy who whatever. as for the third world countries, I am greatfull that I dont live there, work like that or any of it. but, you know the managment board isnt realy a parasite. the board of directors is a group who have a ton of experience and skills, and use them to the best of their abilitys. I know that despite the fact that our CEO probably gets paid well more thatn 10 times higher than me (and I would be above the company average) I wouldnt know how to do it, nor would I want the job.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | People in 3rd world countries work for wages like we do. Only they get a lot less, work more and have less rights than we. I dont see any reason not to complain about my employment, if that is warranted (tho currently it isnt, if truth be told). Saying "look how bad they have it" and pointing at China or India, is basicly just a sophisticated way of saying "STFU and work more!"
And if anything, work is a necesity, not an honor or a privilege. I work not because it makes me feel good (because it doesnt) but because I need money, and thats the entire philosophy. As for privilege... Sitting on the managment board in a big company, being a parasite, working an hour or two every day and getting a wage 10 times higher than that of an average employee... That is privilege. Working a normal job is not a privilege. It is just something we need to do to get by.
| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | | There is nothing wrong with a solid work ethic. In fact, I'm one for believing that your work does define you. High standards and attention to detail, raising the bar for those around you, and inspiring your fellow employee. Working 9-5 makes you average. Working 845-515 makes you good. But working 8-6 makes you great. Whatever you do, you are not your job title or description. Do more than the other guy. Step in and fill in those gaps. Professionals are well-rounded in their chosen fields. And great managers know the company business from the ground up.....and are willing to step into any situation to assist should the need arise. Leaders do what the other guy won't. That defines your reputation. That defines your standard. And that defines the man. Work is an honorable trade. Most people in third world nations will never have the priviledge of working for wages. Never complain about your employment. It's a priviledge to work, not to be taken lightly in a free society. Happy Christmas to all!
a. Hammerstein |
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| [Necroticist] Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:51:24 AM | |
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| o crap!.....i made it til Thursday?? Good day ppl...as u may have gathered one fell off the wagon in style..not proud.....but there ya go... |
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| [Head banger] Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:49:19 AM | |
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theft is wrong. end of story. lots of people do it, in proportion to what they can get their hands on, is never right.
I recall reading an article on the top 16 most successful CEO's in the USA. the latest one to get up was up at 0600, was working his email by0601. the average working day was 14 hours. I couldnt deal with that. but I am sure the CEO of ford doesnt want to be the guy screwing on the left tailight on the asembly line forever. its a question of intelectual work vs physical. I am sure our CEO could do my job, probably beter than I could, but I am sure that I would screw up his job, not that I want it. being the guy who if I screwed up costs 90,000 people their jobs, not for me.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:43:49 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Many long time employees have experience and skills too, but dont get payed well. Its basicly trying to value in money something that cannot be valued in money. I dont know why leadership and bussines abilities should be worth so much more than others, when it comes to incomes, at least. I dont know exactly what type of a job you do, but I can say that the CEO of my company (I dont even know who he is, some Swiss guy probably) wouldnt know how to do my work, and Im pretty damn sure that he wouldnt want it. And thats just one side of it. What about the bussinesmen that abuse their positions and steal companies property? And Im not refering to some office equipment that I might or might have not nicked a couple of days ago. Their corruption goes in billions.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I agree, its not a privelege, but it does in a way define you. you get known as the guy who works at ___, the guy who cant hold a job, the guy who whatever. as for the third world countries, I am greatfull that I dont live there, work like that or any of it. but, you know the managment board isnt realy a parasite. the board of directors is a group who have a ton of experience and skills, and use them to the best of their abilitys. I know that despite the fact that our CEO probably gets paid well more thatn 10 times higher than me (and I would be above the company average) I wouldnt know how to do it, nor would I want the job.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | People in 3rd world countries work for wages like we do. Only they get a lot less, work more and have less rights than we. I dont see any reason not to complain about my employment, if that is warranted (tho currently it isnt, if truth be told). Saying "look how bad they have it" and pointing at China or India, is basicly just a sophisticated way of saying "STFU and work more!"
And if anything, work is a necesity, not an honor or a privilege. I work not because it makes me feel good (because it doesnt) but because I need money, and thats the entire philosophy. As for privilege... Sitting on the managment board in a big company, being a parasite, working an hour or two every day and getting a wage 10 times higher than that of an average employee... That is privilege. Working a normal job is not a privilege. It is just something we need to do to get by.
| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | | There is nothing wrong with a solid work ethic. In fact, I'm one for believing that your work does define you. High standards and attention to detail, raising the bar for those around you, and inspiring your fellow employee. Working 9-5 makes you average. Working 845-515 makes you good. But working 8-6 makes you great. Whatever you do, you are not your job title or description. Do more than the other guy. Step in and fill in those gaps. Professionals are well-rounded in their chosen fields. And great managers know the company business from the ground up.....and are willing to step into any situation to assist should the need arise. Leaders do what the other guy won't. That defines your reputation. That defines your standard. And that defines the man. Work is an honorable trade. Most people in third world nations will never have the priviledge of working for wages. Never complain about your employment. It's a priviledge to work, not to be taken lightly in a free society. Happy Christmas to all!
a. Hammerstein |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:43:49 AM | |
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Well... Many long time employees have experience and skills too, but dont get payed well. Its basicly trying to value in money something that cannot be valued in money. I dont know why leadership and bussines abilities should be worth so much more than others, when it comes to incomes, at least. I dont know exactly what type of a job you do, but I can say that the CEO of my company (I dont even know who he is, some Swiss guy probably) wouldnt know how to do my work, and Im pretty damn sure that he wouldnt want it. And thats just one side of it. What about the bussinesmen that abuse their positions and steal companies property? And Im not refering to some office equipment that I might or might have not nicked a couple of days ago. Their corruption goes in billions.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:25:54 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | I agree, its not a privelege, but it does in a way define you. you get known as the guy who works at ___, the guy who cant hold a job, the guy who whatever. as for the third world countries, I am greatfull that I dont live there, work like that or any of it. but, you know the managment board isnt realy a parasite. the board of directors is a group who have a ton of experience and skills, and use them to the best of their abilitys. I know that despite the fact that our CEO probably gets paid well more thatn 10 times higher than me (and I would be above the company average) I wouldnt know how to do it, nor would I want the job.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | People in 3rd world countries work for wages like we do. Only they get a lot less, work more and have less rights than we. I dont see any reason not to complain about my employment, if that is warranted (tho currently it isnt, if truth be told). Saying "look how bad they have it" and pointing at China or India, is basicly just a sophisticated way of saying "STFU and work more!"
And if anything, work is a necesity, not an honor or a privilege. I work not because it makes me feel good (because it doesnt) but because I need money, and thats the entire philosophy. As for privilege... Sitting on the managment board in a big company, being a parasite, working an hour or two every day and getting a wage 10 times higher than that of an average employee... That is privilege. Working a normal job is not a privilege. It is just something we need to do to get by.
| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | | There is nothing wrong with a solid work ethic. In fact, I'm one for believing that your work does define you. High standards and attention to detail, raising the bar for those around you, and inspiring your fellow employee. Working 9-5 makes you average. Working 845-515 makes you good. But working 8-6 makes you great. Whatever you do, you are not your job title or description. Do more than the other guy. Step in and fill in those gaps. Professionals are well-rounded in their chosen fields. And great managers know the company business from the ground up.....and are willing to step into any situation to assist should the need arise. Leaders do what the other guy won't. That defines your reputation. That defines your standard. And that defines the man. Work is an honorable trade. Most people in third world nations will never have the priviledge of working for wages. Never complain about your employment. It's a priviledge to work, not to be taken lightly in a free society. Happy Christmas to all!
a. Hammerstein |
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| [Head banger] Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:25:54 AM | |
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I agree, its not a privelege, but it does in a way define you. you get known as the guy who works at ___, the guy who cant hold a job, the guy who whatever. as for the third world countries, I am greatfull that I dont live there, work like that or any of it. but, you know the managment board isnt realy a parasite. the board of directors is a group who have a ton of experience and skills, and use them to the best of their abilitys. I know that despite the fact that our CEO probably gets paid well more thatn 10 times higher than me (and I would be above the company average) I wouldnt know how to do it, nor would I want the job.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:55:14 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | People in 3rd world countries work for wages like we do. Only they get a lot less, work more and have less rights than we. I dont see any reason not to complain about my employment, if that is warranted (tho currently it isnt, if truth be told). Saying "look how bad they have it" and pointing at China or India, is basicly just a sophisticated way of saying "STFU and work more!"
And if anything, work is a necesity, not an honor or a privilege. I work not because it makes me feel good (because it doesnt) but because I need money, and thats the entire philosophy. As for privilege... Sitting on the managment board in a big company, being a parasite, working an hour or two every day and getting a wage 10 times higher than that of an average employee... That is privilege. Working a normal job is not a privilege. It is just something we need to do to get by.
| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | | There is nothing wrong with a solid work ethic. In fact, I'm one for believing that your work does define you. High standards and attention to detail, raising the bar for those around you, and inspiring your fellow employee. Working 9-5 makes you average. Working 845-515 makes you good. But working 8-6 makes you great. Whatever you do, you are not your job title or description. Do more than the other guy. Step in and fill in those gaps. Professionals are well-rounded in their chosen fields. And great managers know the company business from the ground up.....and are willing to step into any situation to assist should the need arise. Leaders do what the other guy won't. That defines your reputation. That defines your standard. And that defines the man. Work is an honorable trade. Most people in third world nations will never have the priviledge of working for wages. Never complain about your employment. It's a priviledge to work, not to be taken lightly in a free society. Happy Christmas to all!
a. Hammerstein |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:17:51 AM | |
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np
I still think they should do it for free. The little bastards...
Seriously tho, I just thought its weird... First time I heard of it. But I guess it works well.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:08:41 AM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning/Day everyone...
Sorry Strat, I had to leave abruptly last night...I can't really add to what has already been posted about paying neighborhood kids to shovel snow.
When I was a kid, much like others on the Board here, I did't get paid to do 'our' house, but to go to the neighbors who didn't have kids or go to the elderly, it would get a neccessary chore done and put a little change in your pocket.
It also gives a sense of good community and builds relationships. It really works quite nicely.
The best part of all is like now, during the Holidays, it puts $ in kids' pockets. They shovel enough sidewalks and they can spend $ on gifts or take a girlfriend to a movie or something without having to ask mom or dad for cash.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, all I can say is, turn up the heating... But, hey, it will get better. It cant keep snowing forever! Specialy not in a desert.
It appears that we lost Ron, so I might as well ask you. Whats this with paying kids to clear the snow? Is that like a tradition or something?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Like I said, I am not used to it. It is too cold for me, that's all.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ah, I see. Not getting any better, eh? Well, heres hoping that you get better.
As for me, I just have a cold that I keep under control with some C-vitamin and my Iron Maiden scarf. Typycal winter, what can I say... We are getting to used to having no snow, just a lot of cold and rain.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | HA!!!!!!!!!!!! Very nice of you, Ron! Yeah strat, a little warming would be great. It is especially hard on me when it is cold because of the hardware in my back! I have been aching like crazy for days..more than usual. The medication isn't really helping. I have my recliner by the fireplace and I am trying to sit quietly. |
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| [ron h] Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:08:41 AM | |
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Good morning/Day everyone...
Sorry Strat, I had to leave abruptly last night...I can't really add to what has already been posted about paying neighborhood kids to shovel snow.
When I was a kid, much like others on the Board here, I did't get paid to do 'our' house, but to go to the neighbors who didn't have kids or go to the elderly, it would get a neccessary chore done and put a little change in your pocket.
It also gives a sense of good community and builds relationships. It really works quite nicely.
The best part of all is like now, during the Holidays, it puts $ in kids' pockets. They shovel enough sidewalks and they can spend $ on gifts or take a girlfriend to a movie or something without having to ask mom or dad for cash.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:29:50 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, all I can say is, turn up the heating... But, hey, it will get better. It cant keep snowing forever! Specialy not in a desert.
It appears that we lost Ron, so I might as well ask you. Whats this with paying kids to clear the snow? Is that like a tradition or something?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Like I said, I am not used to it. It is too cold for me, that's all.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ah, I see. Not getting any better, eh? Well, heres hoping that you get better.
As for me, I just have a cold that I keep under control with some C-vitamin and my Iron Maiden scarf. Typycal winter, what can I say... We are getting to used to having no snow, just a lot of cold and rain.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | HA!!!!!!!!!!!! Very nice of you, Ron! Yeah strat, a little warming would be great. It is especially hard on me when it is cold because of the hardware in my back! I have been aching like crazy for days..more than usual. The medication isn't really helping. I have my recliner by the fireplace and I am trying to sit quietly. |
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| [kiamat] Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:44:25 AM | |
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Ahh.. finally the holidays, now I can have late nights (and late mornings) without guilt  still sleepy.
Can you believe our (stupidly massive) christmas tree fell over last night and set the burglar alarm off and I didn't even wake up? |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:55:58 AM | |
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Missed you by 50 mins... Good night.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:07:29 AM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Damn...missed you by ummmm...an hour. Late nights at work lately.
Ah well. Next time. Over and out! |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:55:14 AM | |
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People in 3rd world countries work for wages like we do. Only they get a lot less, work more and have less rights than we. I dont see any reason not to complain about my employment, if that is warranted (tho currently it isnt, if truth be told). Saying "look how bad they have it" and pointing at China or India, is basicly just a sophisticated way of saying "STFU and work more!"
And if anything, work is a necesity, not an honor or a privilege. I work not because it makes me feel good (because it doesnt) but because I need money, and thats the entire philosophy. As for privilege... Sitting on the managment board in a big company, being a parasite, working an hour or two every day and getting a wage 10 times higher than that of an average employee... That is privilege. Working a normal job is not a privilege. It is just something we need to do to get by.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by BLOOD SUCKER Esquire from Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:46:42 PM)| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | | There is nothing wrong with a solid work ethic. In fact, I'm one for believing that your work does define you. High standards and attention to detail, raising the bar for those around you, and inspiring your fellow employee. Working 9-5 makes you average. Working 845-515 makes you good. But working 8-6 makes you great. Whatever you do, you are not your job title or description. Do more than the other guy. Step in and fill in those gaps. Professionals are well-rounded in their chosen fields. And great managers know the company business from the ground up.....and are willing to step into any situation to assist should the need arise. Leaders do what the other guy won't. That defines your reputation. That defines your standard. And that defines the man. Work is an honorable trade. Most people in third world nations will never have the priviledge of working for wages. Never complain about your employment. It's a priviledge to work, not to be taken lightly in a free society. Happy Christmas to all!
a. Hammerstein |
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| [guidogodoy] Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:07:29 AM | |
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Damn...missed you by ummmm...an hour. Late nights at work lately.
Ah well. Next time. Over and out! |
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