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Social Issues and Politics
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Discussions on sensitive and sometimes controversial subjects. PLAY NICE!!!!!





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[Soylentgreen4u] Friday, September 26, 2008 9:39:03 PM 
"SNIFF,SNIFF"...I SENSE INTERNAL SQUABBLING A COMING!...
[VICTIM OF METAL] Friday, September 26, 2008 8:24:22 PM 
Wow, 17mins. into this debate and Obama is nervous and babbling. He doesn't seem to comfortable in this type setting? It's like watching the Honeymoners, hummminnaaa hummminnaaa...I'm not sayin' McCain is on the level with all he's saying, but he is in a zone.
[ron h] Friday, September 26, 2008 7:01:57 PM 
I wasn't going to bring that up, but Hmmm......
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, September 26, 2008 6:43:26 PM)
[guidogodoy] Friday, September 26, 2008 6:43:26 PM 
What? Only ONE VP debate? Damn, I want to hear Palin speak more. Ummm...a bit interested in hearing about the woman who might be an old white guy's heartbeat away from the Presidency.
Edited at: Friday, September 26, 2008 6:56:14 PM
[ron h] Friday, September 26, 2008 6:19:43 PM 
The construction industry, the roofing industry are tough.  Living in the Chicago land area, there are (exaggeration here) millions of small businesses that even pay cash for that kind of work.  These are tough jobs, not everyone can handle that type of work.  Where's all the new construction at?  How many retired roofers do you know?  I don't think there's a market that hasn't been affected in a bad way, unless you make ammo and equipment for the military.
[VICTIM OF METAL] Friday, September 26, 2008 6:03:43 PM 
I was in construction! Not anymore.   [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Friday, September 26, 2008 6:00:11 PM)
Edited at: Friday, September 26, 2008 6:05:18 PM
[ron h] Friday, September 26, 2008 6:00:11 PM 
Why shouldn't they?  If you work at the same company long enough to get a pension (usually 25-30 yrs.) what's wrong with that?  It's a two way street.  Most people I know live paycheck to paycheck working for profitable companies, why is it only those at the top reap the benefits of the profits?  We all do our fair share to make the company profitable, right?
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by BLOOD SUCKER Esquire from Friday, September 26, 2008 5:21:10 PM)
[VICTIM OF METAL] Friday, September 26, 2008 5:42:14 PM 
It's sort of hard to do that with the way the economy is right now. Especially if your job forces you to change mid-stride!
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by BLOOD SUCKER Esquire from Friday, September 26, 2008 5:21:10 PM)
[BLOOD SUCKER Esquire] Friday, September 26, 2008 5:21:10 PM 
Once again, why oh why does the company have to take care of you after you retire? Use your own smarts and set up yopur own future. That's the mind-set that separates the average from the high achievers. Your pension should NEVER be your only source of retirement income. Who here doesn't have some sort of retirement strategy in place? If you don't, then you're a jobber that's relying on your companyb to take care of you. Wrong. You take care of you.

a. Hammerstein
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Friday, September 26, 2008 11:57:06 AM)
[VICTIM OF METAL] Friday, September 26, 2008 4:58:49 PM 
See the thing about this thread is,  there isn't hate and bashing, maybe a sprinkle here and there but we are civil towards each other. Just airing our opinions and views and debating somewhat. Lets keep it that way, please.
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Friday, September 26, 2008 11:57:06 AM)
[VICTIM OF METAL] Friday, September 26, 2008 4:36:50 PM 
Didn' t Harry Reed say, "the war is lost", before the surge!  Obama said "we air raided innocent people in villages"! Do these guys sound like American leaders who stand with honor behind our troops? I don't care if your on the left, or on the right. Or somewhere in the middle. Supporting the people willing to defend us with their lives is the least we can do.
[ron h] Friday, September 26, 2008 11:57:06 AM 
Let me also add this, our seniors, who have already worked hard their entire lives, deserve a secure and dignified retirement. McCain calls the current system of guaranteed monthly benefits for retirees an "absolute disgrace."  He voted for Bush's plan to put Social Security funds into risky private accounts.  Obama supports guaranteed monthly benefits earned by seniors.  He opposes risky private accounts, which will slash benefits for seniors.  I think we all know the state of SS benefits,  but if there is going to be reform in this area, they have to come up with something a hell of a lot better than this.  We've all spent our entire working lives paying for this by way of taxes out of every single paycheck, and to take a risky chance of losing it all?  How can this be acceptable?  This is the best we can do?
Thanks Painkiller and VOM for showing respect in this messed up world of politics.  At the end of the day we may not all agree with each other, but I learn as much as I share when it comes to the issues, and it helps when opposing sides aren't going at each other's throats. 
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Painkiller1990 from Friday, September 26, 2008 5:50:27 AM)
[ron h] Friday, September 26, 2008 11:38:42 AM 
I don't have a lot of time here, so this'll have to be quick.  Also, my voting history will show that I have voted for both Dem. and Rep. pres. candidates in the past, I have never followed strict party lines.
For starters, read my post dated Sept. 24, 2008 7:11:45 AM.  
Now I'll add this,
McCain has no plan to provide health care for all Americans.  Like Bush, he relies on so-called "health savings accounts," a phony reform backed by insurance lobbyists which undermines existing employer-based policies.  Under his plan, Americans will face reduced benefits, higher costs and leaving millions still without coverage.  He also supports a tax on our health care benefits, which would be a huge tax increase for working families.
Obama has a health care plan for all Americans.  Those currently insured will keep their health plans at a lower cost.  The uninsured, self-employed and small businesses will be eligible for a new national health plan similar to the coverage now available to members of Congress.  No Americans will be turned away from any insurance because of pre-existing conditions.  He is opposed to a tax on health benefits.
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Painkiller1990 from Friday, September 26, 2008 5:50:27 AM)
[Painkiller1990] Friday, September 26, 2008 5:50:27 AM 
It's not hard at all, Ron. Just tell us what McCain has voted for you disagree with regarding "labor"  That's your main concern, I can appreciate that, but give me some specifics.
BTW, you should know that I am no McCain fan, but I know how bad the alternatives are.

So, if you don't mind, give me three specific things McCain has voted for which makes you think Obama would be a better president.

Thanks.
[ron h] Thursday, September 25, 2008 8:32:38 PM 
Things would be different/balanced if environmental standards were equally enforced world wide.  They are not.  You are absolutely correct, but that is not a bad thing.  Are you telling me screw the environment so we can keep people working?  Why not enforce the same regulations world wide?  That is one big issue.  NO, don't lower our standards, raise everyone else's.  Why do you think work leaves our borders?  Lower wages, no health care, no workplace safety, no environmental regulations.  And the American auto industry does need help.  When the average CEO makes more money by lunch on the first day of the year than a minimum wage worker makes all year long, why should the worker be the first to sacrifice?  No doubt that agreements made in the past come back to haunt, times change.  That's what makes our gov. so great, we can change policies that don't work anymore.  You are also right about Obama's comparatively short time in the Senate, but I've got years to draw on McCain's votes, and I don't want him as my President, period.  And for the record, I'm not a political anything.  I'm a worker and a family man and things have not been working for a long time and that needs to change.  McCain tell's me that nothing is going to change and I can't stand for that.  I've been a supervisor, a Teamster truck driver, a UAW worker and I've worked in non-union plants as a non-union worker.  I'm not disassociating myself at all, I've worked in numerous sectors, and the problems are the same everwhere, regardless.  I'm not trying to tell you differently, I don't care if you get it or not, but I do know as I have my work history to prove it.  Labor is labor, union or no union, believe what you want.  Can't say anything about the light bulb situation as I am not familiar with it.  And read the other posts, going by previous voting record applies to all candidates, not just presidential, and I do vote for good republican candidates as well.
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Painkiller1990 from Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:25:58 PM)
[Painkiller1990] Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:25:58 PM 
Ron,
You said there have been over 3 million production jobs lost in the last eight years? Where do you get your facts from? The US is still the #1 manufacturer in the world, China is now #2. You obviously blame Bush for what you believe. So, let's take a look at who's really to blame here.
Let's start with the auto industry. The US is the world leader in auto manufacturing throughout the world. People love our cars.
In the US, the Government has just approved a 25 billion dollar bailout of the auto makers. GM I believe...  So, I ask you, why is this? Why are American auto makers struggling to keep up with Toyota?  I'll tell you, over regulation, and this is a fact. Liberal Democrats are beholden to the environmentalist lobby in this country. You can start with Al Gore and work your way down the ladder. These idiots have instituted unreasonable CAFE standards on the auto industry, forcing them to make their cars differently here in the States than in the rest of the world. The result is poor sales domestically. The Government is to blame for this. So, sales go down and jobs go away because demand for these cars is lower than it should be. Thank you very much to the Democratic party. Now, that's who's fault it is, this isn't a game of pass the buck, this is the truth.

TThat's just one example. Another example is the Liberals in Washington making it illegal to make, sell, or buy incandescent light bulbs in the US come 2010.  Democrats passed this bill to outlaw them, not Republicans. And oh how sweet a deal it is for the CHICOMS because the only place the green bulbs are made thet we're now forced to buy is in China. Again, I want to strees... Liberal environmental Democrats are responsible for this. Say goodbye to jobs anywhere in the US where incandescent light bulbs are made in the US.
Only to be replaced by bulbs full of mercury powder... again, thank you to the Democratic party.

Let me also say this, you cannot disassociate yourself from Unions if you're a labor guy. Labor and Unions are one in the same. That's the way it is and I'll not be told differently. Let's look at how Unions have caused people to lose their jobs.  Again, back to GM. Unions strong armed GM into large salaries (That aint a bad thing, btw) but they also negotiated huge pensions, retirement healthcare packages that not only cover the retired worker, but their families too.
This was all fine at the time but times have changed. Since the ridiculous regulations were thrust upon car manufacturers sales have taken a nose dive and GM couldn't do business any longer like it had. People got laid off, major cutbacks were implemented, and now they need help from the Government, all because of your liberal Democratic party.

And lets look at this current debacle we're in, all caused by liberal Democrats. The original brain-child of Jimmy Carter, modified by Bill Clinton, enforced by Janet Reno, mortgage companies were forced to lend money to people who could not pay it back. Minorities, low income people, even illegal aliens were given mortgages to buy homes that they could not pay back. This was done in the name of compassion by liberal Democrats, not Republican. Fannie and Freddy at the time, headed up by Frankin Raines (Who currently works on the Obama Campaign as an economic advisor) Raines made 100 million dollars over 7 years because he kept buying up all these bad loans that weren't getting paid back. They bought so many to inflate their assets on paper, and Raines ended up with huge bonuses, only to be kicked out of there due to all the fraud. Same thing with Jim Johnson, who also happens to be on the Obama economic team. He was booted out of there too due to fraud. Fannie and Freddy were nothing less than a Democratic piggy bank. Chris Dodd took the most money from them,  I believe, a ten year period... Obama comes in at #2 in receiving money from them after only three years, then there's Barny Frank, Jamie Gorelick, Chck Schumer, and on and on.  Meanwhile, in 2003 Bush called for reforms to F&F, McCain called for reforms in 2005, warning of this exact precise thing. Democrats killed any and all attempts to reform it. Rather, Barny Frank was out there telling everyone there is no problem with F&F, they're fine. Chris Dodd too.  Barny Frank, we now just found out, was in a gay relationship with the high ranking member of F&F.  The Democratic party was allowing all this scandal and back door favors to happen while getting filthy rich on the backs of tax payers mortgages.

Now, the idea that you only vote based on the voting record of the candidate is either a flat out lie, or, you're just a political hack who would vote for a Democrat no matter who was running, or, you simply aren't aware of what's really going on with this party, Obama included.
There's no way you could vote for Obama based on his voting record because he's been in the Senate only 183 days before he started running for President. He's got no voting record to speak of, he's inexperienced and not qualified to be dog catcher, never mind President. Edited at: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:27:09 PM Edited at: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:31:24 PM
Edited at: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:32:59 PM
[ron h] Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:44:16 PM 
If there were no bias or clicks or favorites or discrimination or sexual harassment or many, many other things that go on in the workplace then no, there wouldn't be a need.  BUT THERE IS!!!  Always have been, always will be.  If you can put an end to all of that and leave it only up to an individuals' production, then there wouldn't be a need for protection.  How many women have been fired for filing a sexual harassment charge?  Or even worse, how many women don't file a charge out of fear of being terminated (or worse)?
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:17:07 PM)
[Head banger] Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:17:07 PM 
if your a good worker, why do you need protection?  who would fire a good worker?
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:30:10 PM)
[ron h] Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:30:10 PM 
Not true.  In the Right to Work states, as the one I live in, employers do not even have to have a reason to terminate an employee.  So, no, the worker does not have the right to say what he/she wants, there is no standing up for yourself without the risk of being terminated.  How just is that?
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by BLOOD SUCKER Esquire from Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:40:06 PM)
[BLOOD SUCKER Esquire] Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:40:06 PM 
Why does your worker need you to speak for him? Can he not speak for himself through his own work? That's what counts.....the work. We speak of downsizing larger governenments in the betterment of the process. And yet, the unions need to maintain their control over the worker. We complain of the government pulling our strings. And yet allow unions to pull the strings of the employee to slow down progress and upward mobility.

You know what brings a worker to the same level as his employer? Hard work and production. THAT is power.

a. Hammerstein
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:00:06 AM)
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