Happy Monday Peeps!

For everything you have missed,you have gained something else and for everything you gain,you lose something else...(Ralph W.Emerson)

LOL Nice to see you around bossing everybody into their place.

		spapad wrote:
		Well dear, I know your tendencies, and go with the flow! Good to see you!      Where AmI wrote: Hi spapad! I was pretty much getting out of the fray. I felt an incredible urge to take a nap.

Well dear, I know your tendencies, and go with the flow! Good to see you!

		Where AmI wrote:
		Hi spapad! I was pretty much getting out of the fray. I felt an incredible urge to take a nap.

Again Deep Freeze, I thank you for your kind words but what I said is nothing except what I come up with by my own reasoning. The mistake is in thinking you are independent by yourself, that is what I mean. The measure of your success or failure is the people who either put you on a pedestal, or tear you down, acknowledge your existence or ignore you.

Do you believe that what you write is exactly what you came up with by your independent thinking?

As has been discussed here previously membership in any religion of itself does not make one a good person or a bad person.  For one to claim to be a good person they must act in a way consistent with that claim.  If membership in a group causes them to behave in such a way then that group has been good for them.  If membership in a group provides reason that they need not behave properly then it has had a negative affect on that person.  Individuals can often influence groups also and create both positive and negative influences.  Please note that these groups need not be religions, they can be social clubs, organizations devoted to service, a circle of friends even a corporation. 

Many times, both on this website and elsewhere has the good and evil of capitalism been debated.  We see corporate scandals like Bre-ex and Enron appear with regularity.  This is not proof that capitalism is evil; this is proof that people for various reasons have the ability to do the wrong thing.  The system of capitalism is no more to blame for these wrongs than the concept of religion being to blame for a priest molesting alter boys.  People choose their course in life.  To say that pedophilia, alcoholism etc is a disease is flawed.  People may get urges; it is our ability to control these urges that differentiates mankind from animals.  If one is to accept the idea that we are all controlled by a higher power then one must also accept the idea that no one should take any responsibility for his own actions, nor for the well being of anyone else.  In that case anarchy should rein.  One can only hope that mankind is indeed responsible for their own actions, that way we may strive to continue improving. 

Wow!! I have to be honest with you. When I read your statement about agreeing to disagree, I nearly dropped the laptop on the floor!! HA!!!! Seriously, I had mentioned that EXACT thing to someone else regarding this very conversation and now you say it! HA!!!!!!!! I concur. In fact, I never really believed for one moment that you would have some kind of an epiphany and take my position on this. I really didn't. That we can simply have a difference of opinion works very well for me...although I am not really too thrilled with the reference to Manson.....HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As for my kindness, well I truly do believe you are an intelligent person. One need only read your comments to see that they are well thought out, structured and coherent. Rather odd for this place..... I do not have to agree with you to appreciate your ideas.

I do wish to comment about one thing you said in your post, as I feel there is great relevence. You said, "We are masters of our own detiny only after having achieved some level of independence.."  In fact, I believe that is what I have been saying all along. I guess it is more about HOW we achieve said level. There is no "pre destiny" in my comments nor do I believe in ANYTHING mystical. I believe in myself. THAT is the key.

Of all the beautiful truths that I have learned through this, the greatest is that man is the master of thought, the molder of character and the maker and shaper of condition, environment and destiny. As a being of power, intelligence and love and lord of his own thoughts, man holds the key to every situation and contains within himself that transforming and regenerative agency by which he makes himself what he wills. If he will watch, control and alter his thoughts, tracing their effects upon himself and others and upon his life and circumstances; if he will link cause and effect by patient practice and investigation, utilizing his every experience (even to the most trivial) as a means of obtaining that knowledge of himself, he will find that independence. One must be tireless in his quest and ceaseless in practice.

You may have noticed my "garden" analogies. These are perhaps my favorite because these are the clearest descriptions of my position. When you tell me about things outside of your control, I go back to this most important of thoughts;

A man's mind may be likened to a garden. It may be intelligently cultivated or allowed to run wild but whether cultivated or neglected, it will bring forth. It must. If no useful seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless weeds will fall therein and will continue to produce their kind. Just as we tend our gardens and keep them free of weeds, so must we tend our minds, cultivating the fruits of right, useful and pure thoughts. By pursuing this process, man sooner or later discovers he is the master gardener of his soul and director of his life. He WILL reveal the Laws of Thought and how these very real forces operate and shape his character, circumstances and destiny.

		Where AmI wrote:
		Thanks you for your kind words, DP, but you give me way too much credit on that intelligence bit. We then have to agree to disagree. Being rather pragmatic and realist at heart, I don't seek the mystical nor to I feel I have to go through stages of enlightenment to achieve a golden dawn, as much as I don't believe we're predestined to seek people based on our personalities because it's a very very big world out there. We, as humans, may have the inclination for one thing or another, but what you say sounds too much like something Marylin Manson would say to his followers back in the day, or that twit Crowley. It is not the negative experiences that serve as the basis for my replies but rather life as a whole, which has been extremely kind. We are masters of our own destiny only after having achieved some level of independence, but even that will never be realized completely. In the end, I think I said all I had to say. I just thought of posting my 2 cents.

Thanks you for your kind words, DP, but you give me way too much credit on that intelligence bit.
We then have to agree to disagree. Being rather pragmatic and realist at heart, I don't seek the mystical nor to I feel I have to go through stages of enlightenment to achieve a golden dawn, as much as I don't believe we're predestined to seek people based on our personalities because it's a very very big world out there. We, as humans, may have the inclination for one thing or another, but what you say sounds too much like something Marylin Manson would say to his followers back in the day, or that twit Crowley.

It is not the negative experiences that serve as the basis for my replies but rather life as a whole, which has been extremely kind. We are masters of our own destiny only after having achieved some level of independence, but even that will never be realized completely.
In the end, I think I said all I had to say. I just thought of posting my 2 cents.

WOW! I certainly did not expect such a lengthy response. As I mentioned weeks ago, I seem to recall that you did not care to engage me in ANY circumstance and so I am a bit surprised by the direct interaction of the last week or so. Having said this, I will acknowledge initially that you are no idiot. Clearly, you are a well educated or at least higher thinking individual. That in itself is rather refreshing. In any event, assuming you are not looking for a fight and since you have gone to such trouble to comment to me directly and with such passion, I will attempt to answer what I can.

I suppose my multiple references to Jesus stem from the fact that I was raised in a Christian environment. As you have so eloquently pointed out, it is all I know as it was what I was taught and so I am likely to use his legend as my foundation. If I knew more about Buddah or Mohammad or Gandhi or whomever, I suppose I would use them instead. You will have to forgive my limited contact with so-called "man-gods". Further, I am not attempting to "offend". The fact that I choose not to buy into the stories may be offensive to some but my intent is to illustrate, as I mentioned in my post. I am a product of my society, apparently. As are we all in some fashion. Fortunately, I am able to rise above that.

I am not against religion, per se. I see it as a comfort to many and a guide for behavior to some and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, I mentioned YOUR comments regarding positive living. That is a good example that I do not believe all religion should "disappear". I feel one should strive to be the very best he or she can be and if their religion acts as a mechanism for this, so be it. Conversely, it can be a vehicle for horror and evil, as you are well aware.

Now then, the soul DOES in fact attract and there is NO contradiction there of any kind. I said;  the outer conditions of a man's life can always be found to be harmoniously related to his inner state. I also said that this does NOT mean that a man's circumstances at any given time are an example of his entire character, just that they are so intimately connected with some vital thought element within himself that they are generally indispensable to his development. Note that I used the word development. I also clearly stated that man is a progressive and evolving being. No, we are not "doomed to failure". Man is buffeted by circumstances  so long as be believes himself to be the creature of outside conditions, as you have described. When man realizes that he may command the hidden soil and seeds of his being out of which circumstances grow, he becomes the rightful master of himself.

Anyone that has taken the path of practiced self control and purification will tell you that circumstances grow out of thought, for he will have noticed that alteration of his circumstance has been in exact ratio with his altered mental condition.  In fact , when we earnestly apply ourselves to remedy the defects in character and make swift and marked progress, we pass rapidly through a succession of vicissitudes (changes in condition).

It seems rather obvious to me that you have been hurt by someone or a multitude of someones in your life and I am truly sorry about that. I do not wish you suffering. I do believe what I have said. We DO attract our condition and, quite often, the people around us. Circumstance does not make the man, it reveals him to himself. No such conditions can exist as descending into vice and its sufferings apart from vicious inclinations, or ascending into virtue and its happiness without continued cultivation of virtuous aspirations. Therefore, as Lord and master of our thought, WE are the maker of ourself and the shaper and author of our environment.  Even at birth the soul comes into its own and through every step of our journey through life, we attract those combinations of conditions that reveal itself which are merely  the reflections of our soul's purity or impurity. Its strength or weakness. It does not attract that which we want, but that which we are. Whims, fancies and ambitions are thwarted at every step but our inner most thoughts are fed with our own food, be it foul or clean. The "divinity" that shapes our end is ourselves; it is our very self. Man is manacled only by himself.  Thought and action are the Jailers of fate. They imprison, if base. But they are also the angels of freedom. They liberate, if noble. Not what we wish and "pray" for do we get, but what we earn. Prayers are only answered when they harmonize with thought and action.

		Where AmI wrote:
		Deep Freeze, Of course but please, instead of using any religious figure to illustrate your point, can you concentrate on the offending organizations rather than the teachings themselves? Whether you accept or not is beyond the point because you simply are. If you were raised in Russia you would be speaking Russian as your native language, your way of thinking would be Russian and your way of relating to the world would be Russian. You cannot expect to know how to cultivate a flower if you are not taught how. When you first went to school to learn your ABC’s and your 1-2-3’s you were not taught the reason why it is ABC or the reason for the existence of numbers. You are taught how to read and write and only much later in school life, if you have good teachers and you have cultivated the eagerness to learn, then you discover what is behind what you learned in First Grade. Is that True or False? The fact that you automatically choose the example of Jesus, instead of Abraham or some Indian god shows that you are a product of your society. You don’t have an idea of what is Good or Bad, Right or Wrong, unless you have your parents to teach you what is acceptable and what isn’t. Based on that assumption, if your parents don’t know what is Right or Wrong, you don’t know either because they never taught you. So you expect kids to know automatically how to behave? Can a baby nurse itself? Can a baby decide the course of his/her own life? No. Those are all actions that permit you to reach adulthood and are at the basis of your personal survival. You are speaking as a fully aware, fully taught and fully molded adult, who according to his upbringing and life experience has been replying thus. Perhaps you believe that if all religion disappears from the Earth, that humans will be better off. I’m 50/50, not 100% on that one. Every man is the extension of Law passed onto him. But as Guido pertinently stated, not every human being is progressive and wishes to evolve beyond selfish appetites and behavior. Many times, that type of destructive individuality will hurt those around him/her, especially when specific circumstances allow for perceived exemptions from duties and responsibilities towards others. Sounds a bit confusing what you said, though. The soul doesn’t attract anything – if you say that, you directly contradict your Free Will assertions. Are we doomed to attract failure? Isn’t life a collection of failures and successes? Life happens, that is all there is to it, and it’s good to know that there are people out there that can forgive and can lend a hand because of their principles, albeit religious. They teach by example, rather than by pulpit or by shaming. You can’t blame yourself all the time for your misgivings because the people you interact with have their own will too and sometimes that will is to hurt you. It is better to discern your friends from your foes than it is to live in regret of whatever you happen to say or do, especially when personally you know you are good and kind, mostly responsible and with a desire to evolve towards something better. But, if you never experienced good people and have never been taught to distinguish one kind of maggot from another, how will you know which one is poisonous or which one isn't? Edited at: Friday, September 11, 2009 10:16:49 PM

Deep Freeze,
Of course but please, instead of using any religious figure to illustrate your point, can you concentrate on the offending organizations rather than the teachings themselves?

Whether you accept or not is beyond the point because you simply are. If you were raised in Russia you would be speaking Russian as your native language, your way of thinking would be Russian and your way of relating to the world would be Russian. You cannot expect to know how to cultivate a flower if you are not taught how. When you first went to school to learn your ABC’s and your 1-2-3’s you were not taught the reason why it is ABC or the reason for the existence of numbers. You are taught how to read and write and only much later in school life, if you have good teachers and you have cultivated the eagerness to learn, then you discover what is behind what you learned in First Grade. Is that True or False?

The fact that you automatically choose the example of Jesus, instead of Abraham or some Indian god shows that you are a product of your society.

You don’t have an idea of what is Good or Bad, Right or Wrong, unless you have your parents to teach you what is acceptable and what isn’t. Based on that assumption, if your parents don’t know what is Right or Wrong, you don’t know either because they never taught you. So you expect kids to know automatically how to behave? Can a baby nurse itself? Can a baby decide the course of his/her own life? No. Those are all actions that permit you to reach adulthood and are at the basis of your personal survival.

You are speaking as a fully aware, fully taught and fully molded adult, who according to his upbringing and life experience has been replying thus. Perhaps you believe that if all religion disappears from the Earth, that humans will be better off. I’m 50/50, not 100% on that one.

Every man is the extension of Law passed onto him. But as Guido pertinently stated, not every human being is progressive and wishes to evolve beyond selfish appetites and behavior. Many times, that type of destructive individuality will hurt those around him/her, especially when specific circumstances allow for perceived exemptions from duties and responsibilities towards others. Sounds a bit confusing what you said, though.

The soul doesn’t attract anything – if you say that, you directly contradict your Free Will assertions. Are we doomed to attract failure? Isn’t life a collection of failures and successes?

On occasion we do things that contradict our principles and beliefs, so we need to forgive ourselves and others a little more, not as a religious command, but as a way to go through life without tearing our hair out in desperation and crawling around others seeking easy laughs or inventing revenge. Can’t be forgiving all the time, can’t turn the other cheek all the time but you can’t let the negative outweigh what is positive, which is a lot.

I tend to believe that a normal person who feels strongly enough to follow his/hers religious beliefs in practice, most of the time, keeps strong social ties and feels  more strongly the responsibility to society – hardly the weak minded individual that is usually portrayed.  Hospitals and international aid organizations are securely rooted in religious beliefs, and they were kick started by religious organizations, but they’re hardly thumping their bibles at those whom they are assisting. They’re far too busy for that, I assume. They’re not weak and definitely not stupid.

In this day and age, I think it requires more courage because of the instant labeling of bigot, pedophile, church rat, etc.  That’s just on the Catholic side of things.

I used to think how corny, bigoted and antiquated it was to witness church processions in little villages out in the country. It’s because I was not aware of just how deeply the procession served to unite the locals, to have fun and party, and how it served the purpose of reaffirming their cultural identity in the process. Now I see a 500 year-old statue of a Virgin or a Jesus - and it is part of a heritage, it’s not just a statue to pray to, it’s not simply an idol to worship and it’s not an antique at a museum, removed from the human context that created it. Realization of the fact doesn’t make me want to get down on my knees and pray, but rather, to respect and admire it.

Deep Freeze, I don’t understand this targeting of Jesus all the time, especially when he had good things to say and abided by his principles to a fault. Obviously in his day, his actions resonated strongly enough for people all over the Roman Empire to listen and convert to his teachings and those of his immediate followers (the Bible has no direct writings from Jesus) - despite extreme hardship. What’s fair is fair and let’s give credit where it’s due.

We don’t make ourselves; we are a product of our society and society is ruled by principles rooted in the belief of the Supernatural. How Good or Evil we become depends on how we are treated by others and, witnessing the actions of those around us, we set our own course of action by the values of the society we live in.