Timbo, well said! I enjoyed every word of that!
Strat, as for the Justin Timberlake punishment. May I opt for death by bamboo shoots being inserted under my fingernails?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:20 PM)| |  | TIMBONI wrote: | | " Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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